Marty Mann, another AA socialite that broke the traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous, becoming a solicitor for the cult.

avogadno's picture
Submitted by avogadno on Mon, 04/23/2012 - 15:19

Marty Mann breaks personal anonymity and did so at the level of press. Instead of scorned for her obvious lack of humility and overt infringement of Step 11, she’s historically praised.

----11. Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio, and films.----

Consider the following article where she was photographed as well as named as a member of AA. This is an obvious breech of traditions and yet another example of the foundation of lies AA was built upon. Such an obvious ad campaign driven by herself and other “members” of Alcoholics Anonymous.

Snippits from:

Mrs. Marty Mann. Speaker Next Friday. Alcoholics Anonymous Sponsor Open Meeting.
The Sunday Morning Star, Feb 18, 1945.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Q9AmAAAAIBAJ&sjid=mgIGAAAAIBAJ&pg=4...

“Mrs. Marty Mann, first woman member of Alcoholics Anonymous…will be the principle speaker at a public meeting…in the ballroom of the Du Pont hotel Friday evenening.”

“The purpose of this meeting is to acquaint the public with the work and methods of Alcoholics Anonymous and the problem of alcoholism.”

In other words, designed to solicit the public into a cult religion based on false premises.

Comments

Clara's picture

Clara

Mon, 04/23/2012 - 15:22

Marty Mann was permitted to by AA. That wasn't a decision she made for herself unchecked.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Mon, 04/23/2012 - 15:32

First off, AA is run by conference. What "conference" permitted this? Bill Wilson did not speak for AA, because he "does not govern."

Clara, you are making things up AGAIN. Under whose authority and under what Step, Tradition or Concept was Marty Mann "permitted" to break her anonymity by AA? Go back to the closet again with a candle and reread the scripture of the adulterous con man Bill Wilson until you learn how to not make up lies.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Clara's picture

Clara

Mon, 04/23/2012 - 15:36

Bill Wilson, Dr. Bob and others. You can read the bio of her that was published a few years ago. It details how it all got started.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Mon, 04/23/2012 - 15:50

Were talking the "real" AA, not the made up AA by the zealots of the cult who make stuff up.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Mon, 04/23/2012 - 15:57

Exactly, JR. There are 2 reasons wilson wouldn't have allowed this. The first is that he loathed sharing the spotlight with anyone, narcissist that he was. The other is because they were terrified that someone speaking publicly on AA's behalf might get drunk and people would be able to see behind the curtain. There's a story in the big book about that. I think they kept the guy in jail overnight to make sure he didn't do a radio show drunk.

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massive's picture

massive

Mon, 04/23/2012 - 18:05

marty Mann drank again . She had an AA " Slip". Someone sent me her bio. I have not read it yet UGHHHH!

Massive

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Mon, 04/23/2012 - 17:40

Oh, so now someone has to have "permission" to break anonymity and get involved in the press. That's nice of those AA founders. To LET a member do something.

Don't forget in the other thread Clara, where you said that the traditions applied to the organization of AA. Which is why it was OK for you to break the 10 tradition.

Which is it, does AA give permission or can you just take permission? And ar the traditions set for members or the organization as a whole?

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
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Clara's picture

Clara

Mon, 04/23/2012 - 21:07

Yes, the traditions were set up for the organization of AA. Many are taught to personalize them. You have plenty of people that out themselves. Usually for some self-serving reason.

I am not breaking the 10 tradition. I can have opinions, Avo. Nothing says you check your rights at the door when you join AA.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Tue, 04/24/2012 - 09:10

Clara said,

"Yes, the traditions were set up for the organization of AA." ... “I can have opinions”

Yet the 10th tradition was explicit about members not participating in expressing any opinion.

The long version states:

"No group or MEMBER should ever, in such a way as to implicate A.A., express any opinion on outside controversial issues—particularly those of politics, alcohol reform, or sectarian religion. The Alcoholics Anonymous groups oppose no one. Concerning such matters they can express no views whatever."

As a member you violated tradition 10. It says"particularly those of ALCOHOL REFORM", and at the end:

"Concerning such matters THEY CAN EXPRESS NO VIEWS WHATEVER."

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Tue, 04/24/2012 - 15:56

You go Avo!!! How can anyone deny that?

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avogadno's picture

avogadno

Tue, 04/24/2012 - 20:47

Not that I don't think it's ludicrous, but heya, I don't preach the traditions one minute and break them the next.

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Clara's picture

Clara

Tue, 04/24/2012 - 21:22

I don't believe that I preach traditions. There are a few that I disagree with, but I do, however, use them to show why AA operates as it does. The Traditions affect how AA is run as a whole. It doesn't mean that Clara cannot have an opinion and voice it. I don't know how you come to that understanding.

Did you bother to read something other than the clep note in the back?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Tue, 04/24/2012 - 21:28

That's what happens when you don't go to meetings any more. A vague memory of what might have happened, not what is happening now. Losing that connection. The cord has been cut.

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Tue, 04/24/2012 - 22:04

"It doesn't mean Clara cannot have an opinion and voice it. I don't know how you come to that understanding"

Are you kidding me Clara? I told you how I came to that understanding. It's perfectly clear.

Tradition 10
"No group or MEMBER should ever... express any opinion on outside controversial issues —particularly those of...alcohol reform"

Explicitly stated that you can't do what you are doing. You can't. You are not allowed to express your opinion of alcohol reform.

That is how I got to my conclusion. If you cannot concede that:

1. This is how I came to this understanding
AND
2. That this does mean that Clara isn't supposed to express her opinion on alcohol reform.

Then we shouldn't have any further discussions.

I say this because you either cannot read, cannot comprehend what you read, or are in complete denial of what you read. Each of those things are imperative to discussion in a forum such as this.

I don't want to waste my time with someone that is going to stay in such a complete state of denial that you are, concerning this.

For the record, I personally think the traditions are idiotic and I would break them just on principle.

And I don't care that you break the traditions either.

However I do care that you break the traditions and don't have the guts to admit that you are breaking them. You obviously don't care that you do. Quit pretending.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
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Clara's picture

Clara

Tue, 04/24/2012 - 22:19

Did you read the chapter on the tradition? If you do, you will see why I do not feel a person blogging on a blog is wrong. Many people in AA feel the same way. I am sure you see us in places other than on OPF.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Tue, 04/24/2012 - 23:07

Cherry picking. You've conveniently cut out the key clause:
"..., in such a way as to implicate A.A., ...."
A person can say he/she is a sober/recovering/recovered alcoholic (or Satan worshipper or whatever) and express any opinion on outside controversial issues - particularly those of politics, alcohol reform, or sectarian religion. As long as he/she never says those "two dirty words".

Clara's picture

Clara

Tue, 04/24/2012 - 23:53

Besides, what about OPF is really about alcohol reform? How funny.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 06:12

For one, your own views on Smart and how they compare to AA as a treatment program.

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Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 08:22

I can't hep but to compare those things to AA, and I generally find that each "creator" has been an AA at one time or somehow affiliated with the program. I am grateful that there are options and AA always said it wasn't the only way to get sober. But "reform"? Not really.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 05:41

The discussion goes deeper than my most recent post where I posted the full 10 tradition (twice, here and another thread). Because Clara couldn't understand me, I reiterated with the more important parts of the long version to make my point. It says that she should never, at the end, without stipulation. As I said, I could care less if she breaks the traditions. My point was that she has had been using them in her discussions in the past as a basis to (or not), do something. Bringing it up is a point that I use to question her commitment to them, sometimes.

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Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 08:29

My commitment? As I have said, the traditions generally were set up for AA as an organization, but I was taught to personalize them to some extent. But that I don't believe that being an AA and having an opinion is counter to the tradition or that I didn't check my rights as a citizen when I joined are valid, too. I had someone that tried to tell me that the tradition meant that I couldn't have a sign in my yard endorsing my candidate or that I shouldn't have bumper stickers on my car. Yet I bet if you went to a lot today, you'd find some sort of recovery message on at least one vehicle from an AA.

To think that a tradition means that you grovel and walk away meekly isn't true.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

becket's picture

becket

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 10:28

Re "The discussion goes deeper": love how you break the fourth wall to try to emphasize your exasperation.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 15:21

Yeah, it sucks how much things need to be repeated before someone is able to grasp the meaning.

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Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

becket's picture

becket

Tue, 04/24/2012 - 22:33

""Concerning such matters THEY CAN EXPRESS NO VIEWS WHATEVER.""

This is actually pretty poorly written. I think what they meant to say was that any member of AA would do well not to express views on outside issues, and that it should not be done because it could color outsiders' impressions of AA and wrongly stand as representative of the group view when it really is the opinion of the individual himself.

To say "they can express no views whatever" is nonsense. Of course they can, and they will if they so choose. I do it all the time right here on this forum. Of course, then some jackass takes me to task for being a bad "stepper". They cannot fathom that it's possible to have attended AA, to have gained something there, and not be a stepper. Interesting that it's such an "exclusive club" here.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Clara's picture

Clara

Tue, 04/24/2012 - 22:45

I also don't think we are talking about politics, alcohol reform or religion in the ways the Tradition infers or using AA to bring about those things via a professional organization endorsement.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Tue, 04/24/2012 - 22:57

So, since the writers of the 2nd season of "Dexter" aren't members, it's perfectly ok that they wrote Dexter going to NA to cover up his serial killing habit by pretending to have a heroin addiction, then, and (SPOILER ALERT!!) for his opposite sex sponsor to 13 step him, then go completely nuts, then get murdered by him? I mean, I think it's great, personally, but it would break a lot of traditions, dragging the NA name around like that in the name of extremely dark comedy, while highlighting the completely insane sort of people one can meet in "the program", right? I mean, they're not members, and the actual members would be breaking tradition to then condemn the writers of the show, really. Is that how the ultimate fictional just-desserts for the sponsor season of that show came about?

Dexter goes to NA: http://youtu.be/h61FldZRcqc
I've got to admit, I love how he shares about his "dark passenger" to an NA group and they take it as simply another metaphor for "addiction".

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Tue, 04/24/2012 - 23:12

"Dexter" is a fictional television show, just like some of the postings on OPF are fictional.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Tue, 04/24/2012 - 23:34

Yes, yes it is fictional. That was sort of my point. Which fictional postings here are you referring to?

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 07:26

Fictional, but now deleted.
"The Lies of Alcoholics Anonymous - Are AA members in Denial about looking at "their part?""

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 06:10

That response is much more reasonable to me than saying you can't get where I am coming from. The written long version was a nearly exact opposition to your statement, which was:

"It doesn't mean Clara can't express an opinion"
comparable to
"..should not ever express an opinion"

Close enough anyway. If you want to try and determine what they really mean and evaluate what you are doing, it's perfectly fine by me. Just don't try to make a fool of me by implying that I made no sense (you couldn't understand), as if what is written and my argument weren't completely comparable.

I am curious why alcohol reform wouldn’t apply here. You clearly researched SMART and discussed the treatment model at length. You went so far as to compare it to AA.

This discussion kind of proves further to me why the traditions stink so badly. The manipulative properties they hold make them senseless. I have the impression that the discussion of alcohol reform or religion (politics?) allows for questionability into the program. As a rule I stay clear of political discussions. But having added this indicates to me that the they didn’t want AA as a name involved in debates so that it would become a statement. Look at Dick B and his work on the religious aspect. He has clear spent his recent life trying to prove that AA is Christian. The lines as to which any step/tradition makes allows for huge gaps.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 08:12

I don't consider this to be any type of reform. OPF is a blog for people to come and vent opinions and the like. I don't think there is real power here to effect change. People are too involved in personalities to really even stick with discussion.

But I read your posts and if you would read the literature, you wouldn't be "under the impression" or
"as indicated..." because you would know. Just as with Marty Mann. Bill W was very supportive of her efforts. While the traditions weren't "codified" back then, the principles behind them were in effect, and Bill gave his blessing to her breaking anonymity because he believed her work in alcohol education was more important. People DID ask to do such things in the day, apparently. Yet you spent a whole day, arguing that she was a poor AA for doing what she had done. That wasn't true nor was it the view of the fellowship. Anyone suggesting to the contrary was vilified and said to just not know or it was dismissed as sounding ridiculous.

I research the options discussed on the blog, yet I always come away from them witht he feeling that theya re just AA in drag, or AA-lite as another blogger posted. I am glad that there are options, but then AA always did say it wasn't the only way to get sober. I am glad I know about these others programs because I have something to tell someone that finds a problem with AA. I have one right now that I told to read the April 23 reading that I posted about AA not being a cure-all. Go find something else if AA isn't meeting your needs base. It will still be there should she decide to come back.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 15:28

There is a 10 tradition short version and a 10th tradition long version. Neither of those are good enough for you? You didn't even know what those were until I pointed out what it said yesterday. Members should never express their opinions ...............

I think I'll pass about reading the chapter, it lacks any kind of sense. I think you should throw it in the trash too. You don't abide by them, and you shouldn't. You're right about that.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 15:46

"I research the options discussed on the blog, yet I always come away from them witht he feeling that theya re just AA in drag, or AA-lite as another blogger posted."

Clara, who said alternatives were "AA-lite" and when?

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causeandeffect

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 16:35

Clara, I'd still like to know, who said that alternatives were "AA-lite"?

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Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 16:37

I think it was Gigi that referred to SOS as that. "Still?" I've sorry. I must not have seen that post.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 16:40

Clara, if you don't know, don't pretend like you do. I hope you don't have any access to newcomers, you're dangerous.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 16:44

Actually clara, you're the only one. I did a search on it. It's you who first said it and keeps misrepresenting it as if someone else said it. Why must you do that? Do you find it too difficult to be honest in this debate?

http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/search/node/AA-lite

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Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 17:19

I don't think so. One of the women disputed me about being supportive of SOS and I was corrected. She just thought it was a lighter version of AA. I didn't originate it but I am covering it!

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

gigi

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 17:26

But boy oh boy Clara... You are the queen of taking something out of context and using it to your advantage, aren't you? Please be clear that my statement was in no way intended to support you or AA.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 17:31

I never said that it was to support me. Rather, it points to the fact that some of the options are still just versions of AA. I never meant to suggest you were on the same page as me. But, yes, I now refer to SOS as AA-lite because I think it is true.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

gigi

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 17:20

that I referred to SOS as AA lite. I don't remember the exact nature of the exchange at the moment. I think that she was going on about how everyone on the OP forum thinks that all of the alternatives are the bomb. I believe that I said "from what little I've read about SOS it's just AA lite." Meaning that the premise seems very similar to AA but with the religion taken out. In the same post, I also remember telling her that her comparisons of AA and SMART were absurd. Either way, my point was and is that not everyone here is promoting any or all alternative programs as she would like to believe. Maybe they're superior and maybe they're not. The efficacy of other programs has nothing to do with my distaste for AA.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 17:31

I stand corrected gigi. She sure has milked it for all it's worth, though.

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Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 17:33

Cause, if anyone milked it, it was you. It's just a phrase. Why did you feel the need to beat it into the ground other than it had something to do with me? You realy should move on.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 17:48

It's not just a phrase, it's an insult. I don't know much about SOS, but I'm sure it's members would not appreciate the way you are portraying it (or gigi, for that matter, no offense gigi), as they left to get away from AA. I do know it's secular and leaves God out, and if you don't have God as a main focus as the only way to recover, how can it be like AA? I would agree that upon hearing that they introduce themselves as alcoholics, I know it goes against what studies have found to be useful, and that sort of labeling has even been found to be detrimental to recovery. But please point me towards the 12 steps of SOS or SMART or any other recovery modality other than Celebrate Recovery. Then I'll eat my hat.

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Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 17:54

Anything to argue. I know many atheists in AA. Why are you presuming to speak for SOS or its members? You are free to eat whatever you want. G'night, Cause.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 18:05

Alcoholics Anonymous and Scientology are the only "treatments" for alcohol over consumption that are both considered cults by many people.

Unless of course you consider Scientology as being Alcoholics Anonymous-lite.....

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 18:33

OK clara, they do have steps. It is AA lite. Cringe.

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Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 18:54

Hey, Cause, why not let go? I didn't originate the phrase. You are so obsessed that it is pathetic.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

gigi

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 18:25

No offense taken, Cause. It was an off the cuff remark in an exchange that had nothing, nada, zip to do with SOS or any other program. It certainly wasn't meant as an insult though I see how it can be taken that way.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 18:32

Oh gigi, I was wrong, you were right. It is AA lite. It has steps. :O Twelve toxic steps. (shudder)

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