God as we understand Him’

Submitted by Soberman on Tue, 04/24/2012 - 03:28

If a ‘God as we understand Him’ exists, would a belief in this God offer a sound foundation for moral values and duties based on facts rather than thoughts or opinions?

Can the alcoholic base his/her sobriety on a plan that includes a“Don’t drink, do as you please”concept?

Soberman
Why not?
I did it.

Comments

Soberman

Tue, 04/24/2012 - 03:49

1. The big question before us this evening, then, is “What is the best foundation for the existence of sobriety and what program of recovery based on facts rather than thoughts or opinions we should follow?
2. What grounds them?
3. What makes certain actions good or evil, right or wrong based on facts rather than thoughts or opinions?

Unhinged

Wed, 05/09/2012 - 07:33

Soberman,

“What is the best foundation for the existence of sobriety..."

The will within you.

"...what program of recovery based on facts rather than thoughts or opinions we should follow?"

Whatever works for you. What works for you becomes the facts.

"What makes certain actions good or evil, right or wrong based on facts rather than thoughts or opinions?"

You can't determine a good or evil act based on facts.

Soberman

Tue, 04/24/2012 - 04:00

First, if God exists, then we have a sound foundation for sobriety based on facts rather than thoughts or opinions?

True or False
If true, explain,,,
If false, explaim,,,,
Soberman

Soberman

Tue, 04/24/2012 - 04:06

IF I am sober today, then why am I sober?
Sober-man

Unhinged

Wed, 05/09/2012 - 07:41

You are sober today because you haven't had a drink. You've chosen not to drink. It's not God or AA doing it for you man it's yourself.

Are you sober, Soberman?

Soberman

Tue, 04/24/2012 - 04:30

If “God as we understand Him” exists then you define him?

God is by definition, the greatest conceivable being, and therefore, the highest good.
Indeed, he is not merely perfectly good, he is the locus and paradigm of moral value.
God’s own holy and loving nature provides the absolute standard against which all actions are measured.
He is, by nature, loving, generous, faithful, kind, and so forth.
Thus, if God exists, objective moral values exist, wholly independent of human beings
Sober-man

Unhinged

Wed, 05/09/2012 - 07:45

Soberman,

I can't define a God that I don't believe exists.

You say "if" god exists means you're thinking about man.

God is dead.

Soberman

Tue, 04/24/2012 - 04:37

I mean values based on facts rather than thoughts or opinions.
Soberman

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alkieanon

Tue, 04/24/2012 - 05:26

"Don't drink and you won't get drunk."

msafrany

Tue, 04/24/2012 - 05:35

"would a belief in this God offer is a sound foundation for moral values and duties based on facts rather than thoughts or opinions?"

No. Interesting you bring this up. There is a passage in the Big Book that says something to the effect if a philosophy was enough to recover, we would have gotten well long ago. Then it says we could never live up to those philosophies. But aren't the 12 steps and the Big Book just another philosophy? Isn't it fair to say steppers don't live up to this philosophy either? And isn't "progress not perfection" stating we will live a philosophy none of us can live up to? But sure enough, this philosophy is the exception, we don't have to live up to the 12 step way of life to recover, it's the other philosophies that do not work if we don't live up to them.
Strange.

genejoe's picture

genejoe

Tue, 04/24/2012 - 05:49

Good point.

It's not strange, it's illogical. That's why we have 'faith', so we can accept that which is illogical.

Also remember that a book called "Think and Grow Rich" by Napoleon Hill was published in 1937. The Great Depression had taken it's tole on many folks. This book was a reflection of the growing sentiment that a persons' positive outlook on life could and would make their life better. A lot of government propaganda when into creating this "the sun will come out tomorrow" if I only think it will.

This "power of positive thinking" is a major theme in AA. Alcoholism is a disease, but I can cure it by "right thinking".

genejoe

The Invitation, by Oriah Mountain Dreamer

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genejoe

Tue, 04/24/2012 - 05:39

If God exists, how does this indicate that "objective moral values exist"?

If God exists, and we look at the behavior of those who believe in God, then the obvious conclusion would be that "objective immoral values exist". The Jews of the OT killing men, women and children to glorify God. The Koran. The inquisition, the Crusades, Northern Ireland, The Middle East today.

If God exists, it would be a better hypothesis that God wants you to be an abusive drunk who will sell his/her grandmothers sole for another drink. God made alcoholism to be a disease so you will catch it and have a miserable life.

"God as we understand him" helps us to delude the reality of this God. Who really wants to clearly look at "God as he is"?

genejoe

The Invitation, by Oriah Mountain Dreamer

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massive

Tue, 04/24/2012 - 08:58

They think they are special. Serious Spiritual arrogance.

Massive

Soberman

Tue, 04/24/2012 - 09:40

Does Alcoholic Anonymous provide a sound foundation for objective moral duties?
On a theistic view, objective moral duties are constituted by the 12 step program of recovery.
God’s moral nature is expressed, in relation to us, in the form 12 steps, which constitute our moral duties, or obligations.
Far from being arbitrary, the 12 steps must be consistent with his holy and loving nature.
Our duties, then, are constituted by, the 12 step s, and these, in turn reflect God’ essential character.
In the AA program of recovery, the whole moral duty of the alcoholic can be summed up in the 12 steps: (I think you know what these are.)
Soberman

flannigan

Tue, 04/24/2012 - 10:23

What does "God", "objective moral duties" (whatever that means), "God's essential character", have to do with drinking alcohol or not drinking alcohol? These are theological or ethical questions that, while maybe interesting, have nothing to do with drinking alcohol or not drinking alcohol.

Soberman

Tue, 04/24/2012 - 13:10

Objective Moral duties: Right or wrong duties based on facts rather than thoughts or opinions.
What does "God's essential character", have to do with drinking alcohol or not drinking alcohol?
Big Bill says: Those who do not recover are those who cannot or will not completely give himself to this simple program.

If you are trapped in AA then it has everything to do with your duties.
Soberman

humanspirit

Tue, 04/24/2012 - 10:54

Exactly. These theological debates may be fascinating to some, but they are completely irrelevant.

humanspirit

Tue, 04/24/2012 - 12:46

What about people whose understanding of God is that he/she/it doesn't exist?

Soberman

Tue, 04/24/2012 - 13:13

What about people whose understanding of God is that he/she/it doesn't exist?
Soberman

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genejoe

Wed, 04/25/2012 - 05:15

"Then get your ass out..." Why does one need religious faith to belong to a self help program that claims that it is not religious?

"First, if God exists, then we have a sound foundation for sobriety based on facts..." If God exists we still can only know that by faith. GOd existing or not existing has nothing to do with facts. It's faith based - no different than believing in Santa Clause, except no one is killing people in the name of Santa Clause nor are they passing laws forcing the belief in Santa Clause into people's lives.

Moral duties only exist within the context of religion. Why does AA claim so loudly that it is not a religion? A lack of moral values?

Can being immoral be a moral duty? Absolutely yes!. This is how religions justify what they do. This is what gets people like Dawkins and the late Hitchens so pizzed off.

genejoe

The Invitation, by Oriah Mountain Dreamer

Unhinged

Wed, 05/09/2012 - 06:50

Soberman,

"If a ‘God as we understand Him’ exists, would a belief in this God offer a sound foundation for moral values and duties based on facts rather than thoughts or opinions?"

It all depends on the God of your understanding. If your God was the text book definition of wholly good then YES a belief in that God would offer a sound foundation for moral values and duties based on facts rather than thoughts or opinions.

42 years off the drink. Jesus man.