AA is not a cure all
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AA is not a cure-all. It would be a proiduct of false prode to claim that AA is a cure-all, even for alcoholism. (As Bill Sees It, p. 285)
In my early years of sobriety, I was full of pride, thinking that AA was the only source of treatment for a good and happy life. It certainly was the basic ingredient for my sobriety and even today, with over 12 years in the program, I am very involved in meetings, sponsorship and serive. During the first four years of my recovery, I found it necessary to seek professional help, since my emotional health was extremely poor. There are those folk, too, who have found sobriety and happiness in other organizations. AA taught me that I had a choice: to go to any engths to enhance my sobriety. AA may not be a cure-all for everything, but is the center of my sober living. (Daily Reflections, April 23)
I like that AA has always taken the posture that it isn't the only avenue to sobriety.
btnben
Mon, 04/23/2012 - 13:07
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AA is not a cure ANYTHING
Or a "proiduct of false prode"...lol
AA can't cure anything because there is nothing to cure. Excessive drinking is a bad habit that needs to be changed - that's it.
And thanks for the example of the genesis of a bait-and-switch Clara. 1st line - "AA is not a cure all". Last line in quote - "AA may not be a cure all". Next step is "AA IS a cure all". They do it all the time.
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
Orange
Tue, 04/24/2012 - 16:22
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creeping bait-and-switch
Yes, good catch. I like to watch for those bait-and-switch tricks, but there are so many. Bill Wilson's writing style was as slippery as a greased eel.
And that is also an example of "Sly Suggestions": "may not be, but then again, it might..."
becket
Wed, 04/25/2012 - 01:40
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btnben
btnben
Mon, 04/23/2012 - 16:07
"AA is not a cure ANYTHING". Yes, btnben. Unrivaled excellence in communication. Best get after that edit, son.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
btnben
Wed, 04/25/2012 - 01:59
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In response to AA is not a cure all
I can't see the problem with "AA is not a cure ANYTHING"
Marietta, just because Unhinged has joined the ever growing ranks of people who have ripped you a new one, don't get shirty with me...lol. Fucking idiot...lol
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
becket
Wed, 04/25/2012 - 02:12
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Are there other deceased
Are there other deceased members of your extended family to whom you rant and rage?
I have no doubt you can't see the problem.
LOL.
Unhinged neither threatens nor intrigues me. His was a transparent, self-limiting game of the lowest order. You should recognize it.
LOL.
Oh, I forgot: "Thank you."
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
Unhinged
Wed, 04/25/2012 - 06:28
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Becket you intrigue me no end.
"Unhinged neither threatens nor intrigues me. His was a transparent, self-limiting game of the lowest order."
Sweet words coming from someone who questioned my sanity and the size and quality of my testicles.
Does this mean that we are not pals?
Thank you so much.
Clara
Mon, 04/23/2012 - 13:24
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Oops, typo!
Oops, typo!
It doesn't say that it is a cure-all. He says it is the center of HIS sobriety. It might not be for yours.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Persephone In Exile
Mon, 04/23/2012 - 13:27
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"There are those folk, too,
"There are those folk, too, who have found sobriety and happiness in other organizations. AA taught me that I had a choice: to go to any (l)engths to enhance my sobriety."
I'm not entirely sure this shows that AA doesn't consider itself the only avenue, most in AA still consider their particular dogma to be the only way to be "clean and sober", as I'm sure they would not think someone practicing harm reduction is sober at all. Go to any lengths? That doesn't sound like much of a choice. More like the standard "you must now be IN RECOVERY" until the day you die!" mantra, whether or not it's AA or not. Sorry, I'm just sick of this idea that you have to "work" at this constantly.
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
causeandeffect
Mon, 04/23/2012 - 13:29
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That's exactly it Ben, it's a
That's exactly it Ben, it's a bait and switch, talking out both sides of its mouth. We have the "unfortunates" whose chances are less than average because they won't work the program of "rigorous honesty", which morphs into the "death warrant" if you don't work bill's program of lies. Work the steps or die they say so many times until people believe it's real. "The only alternative is jails, institutions or death" they say repeatedly until they make it so.
Really all the first quotation shows is that bill realized that his program fails miserably and often. He had to admit it, only because it's so obvious. The second quote is an admission that this person believed that AA was the only way, and where do you think they got that crazy notion? From steppers saying it's so, or they would have no reason to believe it otherwise.
Troll free AA critical forum
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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
JR Harris
Mon, 04/23/2012 - 13:29
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Which "conference approved "As Bill Sees It" (Hint: none)
As Bill Sees It: The A.A. Way of Life...Selected Writings of A.A.'s Co-Founder
Publisher: Alcoholics Anonymous World Serv Inc (1999)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 0916856887
ISBN-13: 978-0916856885
Publisher: Alcoholics Anonymous World Serv Inc; 1st edition (June 1967)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 0916856038
ISBN-13: 978-0916856038
Who cares what an unemployable, adulterous, con man had to say in a book? It wasn't "approved" by any conferences, therefore does not speak for or is the "real" AA.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
causeandeffect
Mon, 04/23/2012 - 13:32
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AA is a "proiduct of false
AA is a "proiduct of false prode;" bill wilson's false prode.
Troll free AA critical forum
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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
Clara
Mon, 04/23/2012 - 13:47
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Cause, you poor girl. To
Cause, you poor girl. To have to suffer through typos must be a sad thing... since so many of us here in OPF are guilty of the same thing, including you.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
causeandeffect
Mon, 04/23/2012 - 14:21
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LOL! What typo did i make,
LOL! What typo did i make, clara? Show me the post. LOL!
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causeandeffect
Mon, 04/23/2012 - 14:22
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Personally, I think it's a
Personally, I think it's a hilarious typo. Try saying it 3 times fast.
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Clara
Mon, 04/23/2012 - 15:15
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LOL! What typo did i make,
LOL! What typo did i make,
LOL! What typo did i make, clara? Show me the post. LOL>>
It was much easier to find your mistake than trying to find where I told you I went to meetings in DC that I never attended...
Hey, we all make typos. So what?
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
causeandeffect
Mon, 04/23/2012 - 15:22
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Yes, it is clara. That's
Yes, it is clara. That's because nobody in their right mind is going to go back through months worth of posts just to prove to you and you only, that you said what you said. The suggestion to do so is patently absurd, and you know it. That's why you keep saying it. We all know what you said. You, like danny bennison, are only fooling yourself.
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Clara
Mon, 04/23/2012 - 15:26
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More typos and errors in your
More typos and errors in your post, Cause.
I never said that. I had moved from DC a decade before I joined AA. I have never been to a meeting up there. I joined in 2007, afte moving fulltime to Myrtle Beach. The only references to DC were that I had moved there after college and that I drank with Marc Fisher in a bar in Dupont Circle. I was familiar with his take on a few things and his sensationalistic style of writing. That's as far as any of it goes. You can't prove it because I never said I went to meetings up there. I never did. I have also only been posting here for something like 2 months, so how arduous a task could it be to prove your probity?
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
causeandeffect
Mon, 04/23/2012 - 17:00
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clara, what you said was
that you started your sobriety in meetings in the DC area and that your sponsor was also from the area. You also said he was the one to tell you to move to Myrtle Beach because you needed to move away from the party scene in DC. I remember this because I remember thinking your sponsor must be at least somewhat clever to use this excuse to get you as far away as possible. You also whined that you have moved something like 400 mi. away from your sponsor in order to move to Myrtle beach then moved something like 1100 or 1200, or something close to that. I remember this because I was questioning the distance you cited, because the 400 mi. seemed to close, but then realized it sounded about right.
You just want to distance yourself from some real obvious AA ugliness.
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Clara
Mon, 04/23/2012 - 20:14
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I said I had always lived 8
I said I had always lived 8 hours from my sponsor and now I live 27 hours from him. Annapolis is 35 miles from DC, so while it qualifies as being in the DC area, it doesn't mean that I went to meetings there. I didn't. I referred to Annapolis as local do - a drinking town with a boating problem. My sponsor did tell me that I should accelerate my retirement plans (ie move to the beach permanently) because he honestly didn't think I could divorce myself from the people, places and things that I would still want to participate in if I still lived there. I haven't had any exposure to AA up there. My sponsor wasn't even my sponsor at the time of the suggestion. He was my attorney. I actually had already gone to AA for thirty days before he became my sponsor.
You are simply wrong, Cause. You are garbling things to suit a personal purpose and I don't know what it could be. But it is unnecessary. I don't have a reason to misrepresent anything about myself. Sorry. I wasn't in AA in DC; I have never been to the Midtown Group.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
JR Harris
Mon, 04/23/2012 - 20:19
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Keep digging your hole deeper Clara, your story is falling apart
So tell me, what is Alcoholics Anonymous a cure for?
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Clara
Mon, 04/23/2012 - 20:44
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I haveno idea why you and Cause are
I have no idea why you and Cause are so obsessed with me, but it makes no difference. I never went to any of these locations.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
JR Harris
Mon, 04/23/2012 - 20:45
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Are you still obsessed with Clancy? Did you call him this week?
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
JR Harris
Mon, 04/23/2012 - 13:47
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I agree, AA is not a cure all. What does it cure?
I haven't read anything in the scripture that the unemployable drunk Bill Wilson stole that says it cures anything. Please cite page and line in answer if you find out what it cures.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Unhinged
Mon, 04/23/2012 - 13:50
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Clara...hope you don't mind me asking?
Clara,
I just wondered? Being an AA'er with 12 years in the programme....is it ok to ask you who, or what, your higher power is?
Just curious.
Clara
Mon, 04/23/2012 - 15:20
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My higher power is God,
My higher power is God, Unhinged. I always did believe in God, but it wasn't until 5 years ago that I really believed that God cared about me. Until I believed that, though, I had this wonderful cadre of AA women that were very helpful, and I believed because they did.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Unhinged
Mon, 04/23/2012 - 15:57
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Hey Clara....
Hey Clara....
I must say, you seem very 'popular' on this forum. I feel as if I am fighting for your time.
Interesting your higher power is 'God'. I hope you don't mind me asking? Exactly what religion do you follow? Are you Catholic? Protestant?
'God', is certainly not without a sense of humour. After he/she made the Universe, Earth and all things on it, he/she created alcoholics. Then he/she would have you go back and ask him/her to restore your sanity, remove your shortcomings and pray for knowledge of his/her will all in an attempt to cure you of the alcoholism he/she gave you.
I admire your resilience. You seem to take quite a battering on here. In defence of the people who try to pummel into the ground. You do fly the flag somewhat for a very dangerous organisation that prays on peoples weaknesses and turns into brainwashed drones.
Clara
Mon, 04/23/2012 - 16:12
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I am from a Methodist
I am from a Methodist midwestern American family, Unhinged. I enjoy the religious overtones of the program, and I think the steps are simply peaceful suggestions I found in any number of other self help or religious forums.
AA is a lot of things to different people. For some, it was the answer. To others, it isn't and that is why I am thankful that there are other options available to them if sobriety is what they want. I haven't been brainwashed nor have I ever felt preyed upon. I know it hasn't been a positive experience for everyone, but I can only speak for my own. What I find interesting about the 'pummelers', if you will, is that while they think the OPF should just be for them and anti people like them, they think nothing of going into meetings with the intent to derail them or supporting those that do...
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
JR Harris
Mon, 04/23/2012 - 16:27
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What about the coreced members that AA doesn't work for?
You know, the ones that AA makes "Correction Committees" for and works with probation and parole boards. The same ones that if the flow from jails and prisons gets cut off, will eventually kill the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous. Why do you think that 95% of the people run from the cult when they get the chance?
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
btnben
Mon, 04/23/2012 - 16:53
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Unhinged - I love your username...lol
"I am from a Methodist midwestern American family, Unhinged. " - If you didn't know "Unhinged" was a username, what a different meaning that sentence has...lol Freudian????
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
becket
Wed, 04/25/2012 - 01:18
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Please explain how the word
Please explain how the word "unhinged" and any single Freudian concept share any common ground. Even to try to stretch the humor you would have to at the very least omit the comma. There's nothing Freudian about any of it.
"Thank you."
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
avogadno
Mon, 04/23/2012 - 16:07
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"We needed to ask ourselves
"We needed to ask ourselves but one short question. "Do I now believe, or am I even willing to believe, that there is a Power greater than myself?" As soon as a man can say that he does believe, or is willing to believe, we emphatically assure him that he is on his way." ~Bill W.
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
Persephone In Exile
Mon, 04/23/2012 - 16:30
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Yow. That quote should be
Yow. That quote should be posted everywhere as a disclaimer, a warning, an explanation. Beware all who enter these doors.
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
becket
Wed, 04/25/2012 - 01:22
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Why? He doesn't say exactly
Why? He doesn't say exactly what the destination is. In and of itself this statement is not dishonest. Within the context of your own experiences it may be somewhat misleading. He may have meant a man would be on his way to the agony of insight. Not a pleasant journey, that.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
avogadno
Mon, 04/23/2012 - 14:09
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Bill Wilson must be turning
Bill Wilson must be turning over in his grave. The Orange Forum is full of controversy and Clara engages in it day after day.
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
Clara
Mon, 04/23/2012 - 15:21
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There is nothing in AA that
There is nothing in AA that says a person that is an AA cannot have an opinion, Avo. AA as an organization is affected by that tradition.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
causeandeffect
Mon, 04/23/2012 - 15:31
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Why do you think that
Why do you think that tradition exists? To prevent members from drawing the AA name into public controversy. As a known member of the fellowship, that's exactly what you're doing.
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Clara
Tue, 04/24/2012 - 07:57
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I disagree with you. And we
I disagree with you. And we can. but I find it ironic that it is all right for people to go into an AA meeting and say what they feel but no one could come to OPF and share an opinion. If I had never said I was in AA, but did say all of the very same things, what would you say then? I was asked if I was a member and how long I had in, and I chose to answer the question. Any number of people participate in blogs yet no one knows their names, so they are anonymous. I am not bring AA into controversy here; it already is.
I also found something that Monica said on Anti's blog in Florida to be wrong. She said to ask these cops and all if they were AA members and that they would have to answer if they were. The fact is that they don't. No one has to reveal they are an AA member or if they had sex yesterday.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
becket
Wed, 04/25/2012 - 01:24
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Public controversy? You have
Public controversy? You have to be kidding, causeandeffect: all 20 posters have chosen sides and it's a done deal. Nobody else on the outside of this forum gives a shit what is or is not said here about AA.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
avogadno
Mon, 04/23/2012 - 15:37
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Step 11 specifically states
Step 11 specifically states that an AA member should never express an opinion on outside issues, "particular those of politics, ALCOHOL REFORM..."
Nice rationalization you have going for yourself so that you can keep doing what you want to do. You're breaking the explicit rules of AA, ones that you hold so dear to your heart and even use to back up your arguments as to why AA shouldn't change. "Cause it's a tradition". Those mean shit. Bill Wilson didn't abide by them either. 5 year rule? Once you are sober long enough you can do whatever you want I suppose. 5 seconds or 5 years. It's still dirty.
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
Clara
Mon, 04/23/2012 - 16:15
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The traditions apply to how
The traditions apply to how AA as an organization is run. As I have stated before, you don't check your rights at the door when you join AA.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
JR Harris
Mon, 04/23/2012 - 16:22
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There is no "organization" of AA to run, they have no leaders
Everything is supposed to be "conference approved", but then again which conference? The people in the UK, Central America (the Mexican lawsuit comes to mind), Europe (the German lawsuit comes to mind) can make up their own rules by "conference." So who is this "organization of AA" that has no leaders, that is not run by conference and that puts members of the fellowship in Jail and ruins them financially?
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
becket
Wed, 04/25/2012 - 01:31
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Well now, wait a minute. No
Well now, wait a minute. No leaders? What about Bill Wilson and Marty Mann and all the rest who are gleefully calling the shots from beyond the grave? Either they are factors in this deal, in which case you must acknowledge their transcendental powers; or they are not factors, in which case you must immediately cease and desist evoking their spirits every third post to try to beat the shit out of anyone who disagrees with your opinion.
"Hope you don't mind my drawing your attention to this!"
"Thank you."
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
Clara
Tue, 04/24/2012 - 07:59
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I am explaining to you why
I am explaining to you why the organization doesn't change via tradition, not that I necessarily agree with it. But it is just a fact that AAWS will stand by those and they have been in effect for 50 years.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
causeandeffect
Mon, 04/23/2012 - 16:38
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There's some circular damn
There's some circular damn logic if there ever was one. The traditions apply to AA but not AA members yet AA is made up of members, yet when traditions are broken, it was the member, not AA. So when a person, even high up in the chain of command breaks the tradition they can just claim if was them, it was not AA and all is fine.
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alkieanon
Tue, 04/24/2012 - 05:32
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Steps versus Traditions
Have heard it said that, "The Twelve Steps are for the person and the Twelve Traditions are for the group".
Brett
Tue, 04/24/2012 - 07:33
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ROLMAO
6 bloody beers, you have no credability left, get a real life & get a real job.
6 beers lol.
Brett
Clara
Tue, 04/24/2012 - 08:00
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Well, Brett, not everyone has
Well, Brett, not everyone has to be a slovenly, falling down drunk to be an alcoholic. And there were times when I was just that. Perhaps not as regularly as you. As for jobs, I had mine, dear. I'll leave that to you.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Brett
Tue, 04/24/2012 - 08:52
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who is an alcoholic?
musta stretched that chapter, 6 beers, what things weren't to bad at 4, but then my 'disease' went into overdrive & I 'powerlessly" moved on to 6, get a life, get a job. 6 bloody beer binge lmao
Brett