Newcomers Rescue League

btnben's picture
Submitted by btnben on Wed, 04/11/2012 - 17:14

Forums:

Those posters who are familiar with the OP will know the concept dreamt up by Orange. It is an imaginary (as yet) organisation whose aim is to save the newcomer from the grasps of the cult (sounds so ominous...lol). In reality, I'm sure that most of the anti folk on here went to AA because they were misinformed . The problem then was that, after entering through those doors, the REAL job of misinformation began.

I've noticed, over the last few days, new names logging in. Several haven't posted yet, and I thought it could be a good idea to have a thread every few weeks/months about what is happening here as a forum, what plans do people have to get the truth out there, and even how they feel about not going to meetings etc. Just an idea.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 04/14/2012 - 10:31

I agree very much with what you written here, PIE. Many people avoid NA because of the "street atmosphere" and come to AA. My friend Dena was the same way, athough to some degree, her problems involved alcohol, too. I have often wondered what Cindy McCain did when she was mandated to NA meetings as the result of her own white collar addiction, as a friend was wont to call it.

Sorry if I am repeating myself, but for some reason the posts are skewed since I logged on.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 04/14/2012 - 11:50

I agree very much with what you written here, PIE. Many people avoid NA because of the "street atmosphere" and come to AA.

This just makes it all the more fucked up that your wonderful AA group deprives suffering addicts from the full benefits of your meetings by relegating the addicts to the NA ghetto.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 04/14/2012 - 12:13

The "street atmosphere" may just be a reflection of the destruction that these people have suffered at the hand of their addictions. Given enough time and enough booze and enough demoralization any drunk would fit right in. However, given that these groups are autonomous, it should be understood that if they wanted to appeal to only white-collar nip sippers instead of gutter guzzlers, that is their right. It's sad because there is so much to be learned from the other guy's experience; but if every other guy's experience is the same as mine, what's there to learn? JR Harris would laugh at this, but I'm going to put it out there anyway: we can find similarities in our differences. Comparing experiences enriches us and deepens our understanding of dependence/addiction. It brings compassion and empathy to the table if brought to light without judgment.

We tend to segregate ourselves (smoker's meetings, impaired nurses' meetings, lawyers' meetings) because of commonalities. But I have always advocated mixing it up wherever possible, just to get some different flavors going in what could otherwise be the same bland gruel served up every day.

In any case, groups are going to do what they want unless and until reform is introduced, and even then many will rebel against change.

I thought no one here wanted to discuss making AA better, because isn't the consensus that AA is anachronistic and evil? Well, here we are anyway. Sharpen the hatchets: here we go again.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 04/14/2012 - 12:57

Except the Fourth Tradition prohibits groups from taking actions that affect AA as a whole. I think different groups adopting different policies about who is welcome does affect AA as a whole. It would be like each individual state deciding for itself who is a U.S. citizen. It goes to the very heart of who is in and who is out. As far as lawyers' groups, nurses' groups, etc., none of those groups are exclusive to those categories. A bum off the street could stumble into a lawyers' group and he would not be turned away or refused an opportunity to share.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Sat, 04/14/2012 - 13:13

"Given enough time and enough booze and enough demoralization any drunk would fit right in".

I'm not so sure about this. I mean, if you were also talking in terms of drugs and addicts as well as drinkers. I could never see myself deteriorating to points that I have seen. Perhaps I wouldn’t be “me” anymore, and I would change drastically. I’ve said that one of the reasons I decided to quit was because of some defects I developed. I couldn’t have imagined I was capable of that either. However, some things are more obvious. A lot of my personality remained intact and I kept up appearances and no one knew of my addiction unless I wanted them too.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 04/14/2012 - 13:30

Different people have a different "bottom," or whatever you want to call it. I used to use plenty of drugs. Still, I would have never sucked dick for dope, nor would I have ever sucked dick for booze. That said, I think Becket's point stands that booze can lead people to sink to their relative bottoms just as much as drugs. And as you implied, we're all different.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Sat, 04/14/2012 - 22:41

Penny I had the exact same thing in mind about "relative bottoms". Well said. It's an odd feeling I have. I can be a very forgiving person, and have done my share of it. When it comes to myself it's another story though. I think it comes from being raised in a family where guilt and fault was assigned to us as children. Even having done nothing wrong, I felt the weight of the world on my shoulders.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 04/14/2012 - 12:27

We've had our share, Penny. Keep arguing, dear.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 04/14/2012 - 12:49

We've had our share, Penny. Keep arguing, dear.

That's what I thought.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 04/14/2012 - 12:50

duplicate

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Sat, 04/14/2012 - 13:01

I didn't like the younger, ganger bangers at the NA meetings. A lot of the women were the same, low cut tops, tats, foul mouths and attitudes. This wasn't my scene. They say principles before personalities, but they didn't have principles that I appreciated. I initially got involved with a nice group of ladies, some younger and some older than I. It was fine at first but I learned the hard way, they were 2 faced and you had to "know" someone to be a part of their group. I was because of my sponsor. It turned out this group wasn't for me either.

Sucks being a druggie. There is a lot of stigma to overcome. I hear it often when I'm around folks that aren't aware of my past. This happened at AA meetings too, whether they knew or not, but we weren't supposed to talk about drug issues. It was even in the opening literature.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 04/14/2012 - 13:49

Thank you, Avo. Glad to hear someone else say it for a change.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Sat, 04/14/2012 - 14:03

There is always a general agreement that education is a bad thing in groups here, I don't know if that's the case where you are, Avo. That's mostly what bothered me. I'm comfortable in most subcultures, but it's as if each side of any subculture represented locally in NA is the exact portion representing those who think any sort of educational background is a load of bunk. Which just leads to plenty of derogatory comments towards anyone who doesn't pretend to be a high school dropout, lots of comments to some newcomers about "needing a dictionary" to even understand their shares, etc. It's a revolving door for anyone who doesn't come across that way. At least it is here.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Sat, 04/14/2012 - 22:56

Yes, the struggling unemployed single Mom's were more respected than the full time employee and married mother. The harder your life, the more respect you got. I didn't pretend to be that person, I'm not sorry to happily married and committed. I've worked hard my entire life, got a job as a young teen (lied about my age) and worked full time through college. I never felt the need to brag about my accomplishments, I was usually pretty quiet. But I'm not going to be sorry for it either. Like so many, I had struggles as a child, we were poor. U.S. poor I mean. Money and education doesn't make anyone a better person. And not having it doesn't either. There is always too much separation that kind of crap. One thing about growing up Catholic that was nice. Our school and parish, my parents also, taught us kids to be accepting of all walks of life. I appreciated that.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

btnben's picture

btnben

Sun, 04/15/2012 - 04:33

That's one of it's main problems. When people join they are pretty messed up usually - that's a big equaliser. People with ability, drive, ambition, work ethic soon get their lives together and begin to rebuild. Once you start to get other things in your life, other than AA that is, you start to notice the differences between AA and normal life.

Over the years I've seen many, many people get off the drink, get back to work etc and leave AA. I've been one of the ones who shook their heads and said "Its only a matter of time - he'll be back" and then forgotten about then, because they didn't come back - they had moved on. The people who were almost guaranteed to remain, to be there night after night, were the ones who had nothing else in their life. No job, no relationships, no friends outside of AA.

Thanks for that post Avo. I do like the stuff you write - no bull, just straight to the heart of the matter. Just because of the accident of birth, not through anything I've done, I've had a very different life than you financially and I couldn't agree with you more. Money fuck's people up - Jesus said so. He didn't use those words but he is welcome to borrow them whenever he wants...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 04/15/2012 - 07:26

That is one reason why I don't let statistics or someone's interpretation of them discourage me. Sure, people leave the program but you can't just conclude that they've gone back out. Many have taken what they needed from the program, got lie sorted out and moved on. Some could argue that is what I have done. I have moved to an area where AA isn't really the same to me or provides me with what I liked out of it in MB. My husband still enjoys it. The only time I know that someone has taken up the drink again is when they come back and say so. It's conjecture otherwise.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 04/14/2012 - 13:47

So don't go, Penny. You can find a group more to your liking, I am sure.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 04/14/2012 - 14:28

It's not about me and my liking. It's about the addict who still suffers and saving lives. I know that's a tough concept for you to appreciate.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Sat, 04/14/2012 - 13:56

Well, there is a "street" quality to the meetings in the city, but barely. I wouldn't even call it street. I know this sounds like I'm splitting hairs here, but there almost seems to be a separate subculture locally here for most NA groups. And subcultures are important to people.

And what is going on with the comments? Half the time I log on, every "recent" comment is from 2 weeks ago....was wondering about that myself, Clara.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

gigi

Sat, 04/14/2012 - 15:02

Correct me if I'm wrong Clara, but it seems like you're saying that addicts are welcome to join your group as long as they are of the white collar variety. So, your friend Dena and Cindy McCain are cool but Cookie from the Go-Go bar would need to take a hike over to NA?

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 04/14/2012 - 15:08

Clara won't come right out and admit that, but that's probably how it works in practice. I think it's about status and image. If Cindy McCain came to Clara's Myrtle Beach group and started talking about her drug addiction, I doubt she would receive the "talk" in the way a heroin addict off the street would.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 04/14/2012 - 17:01

Still wrong, Penny.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 04/14/2012 - 18:14

Maybe. Only you know.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 04/14/2012 - 16:58

We've had our share of former strippers in our group, Gig. Cookie is perfectly welcome if she has a desire not to drink. If she regularly wants to talk about drug use, she might be better served by NA because it is Alcoholics Anonymous.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 04/14/2012 - 21:31

Why not let her decide for herself where she will be better served?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 04/15/2012 - 07:09

She might not know about NA, Penny.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

gigi

Sun, 04/15/2012 - 09:01

You know that's not true Clara. Why did your friend Dena come to AA instead of going to NA? Because she didn't know about NA?

Every addict that I met in AA was there because they didn't find NA meetings to be supportive or helpful in their pursuit of recovery. I heard from many people that NA meetings are a great place if you're looking for a new dealer, but a terrible place to go if you're looking for some sober support.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 09/13/2012 - 18:25

That is exactly why she came, but when I brought it up another time, I got chastised for social class and behavior. But she doesn't talk about drugs in her shares. While alcohol played a role, herion was her doc. Her behavior is the difference. But when I say this, you get people jumping at you about how she should just be able to come in and talk about whatever it is she wants to if we are really loving, giving people that just want to help recovery.

NA tends to be much younger, rowdy, etc., with much shorter sobriety times, more relapses, etc. It wasn't for her. She loves AA, is very involved, loves her women's group, and she has close to 30 years in the fellowship. Moving to Tampa and wondering the same thing I did... Will it be the same and will she like it as much?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

gigi

Sun, 04/15/2012 - 09:37

Clara, you are the one who made it about social class. You're saying it again right here. You and your group want to be sure that a certain image is maintained. I don't think you have an ounce of real concern for anyone outside of your social class, income bracket or educational background. Just a hunch.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 04/15/2012 - 09:54

Gigi, you are just wrong. And if you read Avo's posts on the same subject, perhaps you can see how we don't want that environment. AA is about alcohol. If you choose not to grasp that, then that is what you choose. I am not sure that a woman that was tasked with taking meetings to halfway houses in MB could necessarily be said not to care about anything but image.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 04/15/2012 - 10:44

I don't know that this addicts vs. drunks business is about maintaining image. I think it's about a comfort zone. Lots of drunks feel like they've wasted time in a meeting if an addict shares an experience that is unfamiliar to them. I always enjoyed it because I had the dual experience. Addicts attending AA meetings and sharing their experiences is a relatively recent phenomenon when one considers the entire AA continuum. My personal feeling is that anybody who can crawl through the doors should be welcomed, but I also understand how an alcoholic who cannot identify with the drug experience, and who has, perhaps, carved an hour out of his day to rush to a meeting, would be disappointed to have to listen to anecdotes that he could not identify with. Everything said in a meeting is fodder for thought and can be used to refine one's recovery process. But sometimes when we are chiseled out of our comfort zone the notion of unity takes a hit.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Thu, 09/13/2012 - 17:57

"That is exactly why she came,
That is exactly why she came, but when I brought it up another time, I got chastised for social class and behavior. But Dena doesn't talk about drugs in her shares. While alcohol played a role, herion was her doc. Her behavior is the difference. But when I say this, you get people jumping at you about how Dena should just be able to come in and talk about whatever it is she wants to if we are really loving, giving people that just want to help recovery.
NA tends to be much younger, rowdy, etc., with much shorter sobriety times, more relapses, etc. It wasn't for her. She loves AA, is very involved, loves her women's group, and she has close to 30 years in the fellowship. Moving to Tampa and wondering the same thing I did... Will it be the same and will she like it as much?"

--Of course she is changing her original posts so that if anyone checks out the link she appears to be saintly. It is one of her "tricks". Unfortunately for her, I saved them all.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Sun, 04/15/2012 - 09:36

Very true Gigi, NA can be dangerous for more than the reasons we talk about every day. Want some drugs? Go to NA. Want someone to party with? Go to NA.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 04/15/2012 - 10:00

Thank you, Avo. I appreciate your candor, but when I saw we don't want those issues, somehow I am an elitist, interested solely in image.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sun, 04/15/2012 - 11:02

So tell her and let her decide.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 04/14/2012 - 16:25

"It isn't about the people that use drugs. It is about my problem with alcohol and wanting to find like individuals to help me with it. Identification is a big tool and a big point of the program."

The problem of dependence and addiction is huge; unfortunately, it has spread like wildfire since any mention of it in the original Big Book. I understand wanting to hear solutions from people who have alcoholism in common with you; I used to get really weary and fatigued when someone who had been blasted on crank for four days wandered into one of my meetings and could not be tamed, just wanted to go on and on and on about himself, his dope, the cops, the abandoned building he was living in. It's exhausting and it also co-opts maybe five or ten or fifteen minutes in which others who were suffering could have been addressing their problems. But in a room where we often heard "love and tolerance of others is our code", we would all just look at one another and let him rip. We all did so with the understanding that when the meeting was over we could get in our cars and meet at the local cafe and have the meeting we had hoped for. Sometimes there's not time for that, but we could never know what that fifteen minutes meant to that addict or what part it played in his development of hope that he could be free of crank. Sometimes people came back six months or a year later looking good; other times we'd hear that one of them walked in front of a car and that was that.

I believe in God and I believe that God has a very complex, dynamic and invisible way of interweaving lives and events. I do not believe that everything in life is random. It's not my place to try to know how He's going about it; it's just my place to pick up the cards I'm dealt and play them with the maximum amount of finesse I can muster. If that meant merely tolerating the addict, I could do that. If it meant taking the addict to lunch, I've done that, too. If it meant writing his eulogy, I've also done that. I'm happy to be alive. I don't know that it's a miracle, but it's definitely a reprieve. I don't try to run the show. I just pick up the cards.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

gigi

Sat, 04/14/2012 - 16:55

Nicely put. I appreciate hearing your thoughts.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

btnben's picture

btnben

Sat, 04/14/2012 - 17:00

" I used to get really weary and fatigued when someone who had been blasted on crank for four days wandered into one of my meetings and could not be tamed, just wanted to go on and on and on about himself, his dope, the cops, the abandoned building he was living in."

Crank - I'm assuming that is methamphetamine? The new methods of synthesis that produced home made meth which was 5 times stronger than the old stuff, and which subsequently became the drug causing all the problems, was not produced until the early 1990s. According to you, you had left AA by then - isn't that right? Whoops Marietta Meltdown. Bit of a mistake there...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 04/14/2012 - 17:24

Hope you've built your ark, btnben.

"Early methamphetamine
First synthesized in 1887 Germany, amphetamine was for a long time, a drug in search of a disease. Nothing was done with the drug, from its discovery (synthesis) until the late 1920′s, when it was seriously investigated as a cure or treatment against nearly everything from depression to decongestion.

In the 1930′s, amphetamine was marketed as Benzedrine in an over-the-counter inhaler to treat nasal congestion (for asthmatics, hay fever sufferers, and people with colds). A probable direct reaction to the Depression and Prohibition, the drug was used and abused by non-asthmatics looking for a buzz. By 1937 amphetamine was available by prescription in tablet form.
Methamphetamine, more potent and easy to make, was discovered in Japan in 1919. The crystalline powder was soluble in water, making it a perfect candidate for injection. It is still legally produced in the U.S., sold under the trade name Desoxyn.
During World War II, amphetamines were widely used to keep the fighting men going (during the Vietnam war, American soldiers used more amphetamines than the rest of the world did during WWII). In Japan, intravenous methamphetamine abuse reached epidemic proportions immediately after World War II, when supplies stored for military use became available to the public.
In the United States in the 1950s, legally manufactured tablets of both dextroamphetamine (Dexedrine) and methamphetamine (Methedrine) became readily available and were used non medically by college students, truck drivers, and athletes, As use of amphetamines spread, so did their abuse. Amphetamines became a cure-all for such things as weight control and treating mild depression.
This pattern changed drastically in the 1960s with the increased availability of injectable methamphetamine. The 1970 Controlled Substances Act severely restricted the legal production of injectable methamphetamine, causing its use to decrease greatly." ~ http://www.methamphetamineaddiction.com/methamphetamine_hist.html

I think you were just late to the party, btnben. I was snorting this stuff regularly in the mid-70s through the very early 80s. I had friends who manufactured meth and were giving it to me in multiple vials for free. If you have any doubt that the old-style meth had no kick, try it yourself. Try a couple of vials at once. How many heart attacks would you like to have?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

btnben's picture

btnben

Sat, 04/14/2012 - 17:34

The pre 1990s drug was very different in its effects. The newer stronger stuff is what makes people age rapidly and lose their teeth. The old methedrine didn't do that. This is from the same site you quoted, you were just being choosy about the bits you used. Note the dates.

"In 1997, in the West, Southwest, and the South there were reports of methamphetamine and ephedrine as emerging drugs. According to DEA sources, Mexican manufacturers and distributors have replaced the outlaw motorcycle groups which had produced methamphetamine supplies for over twenty years. The new manufacturers are producing large quantities of high purity methamphetamine on both sides of the border, drawing on the legal supply of the precursor chemicals on the Mexican side. The price of methamphetamine had dropped significantly (to approximately $3000/pound in Southern California) until recent efforts to curtail ephedrine/pseudoephedrine supplies produced a
slight shortage in some areas and a corresponding price increase. In Washington State, sources report that the resultant price increase has caused a number of methamphetamine users in that area to switch to cocaine."

I've been out all day. Have you been on here all day? I only ask because it seems like it has been quite quiet. You been boring all the good people again?...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 04/14/2012 - 18:52

First you're trying to call me on the actual genesis of the drug; then you switch to is effectiveness then as opposed to now. The fact is, crank has been around for over a century, and has been in use as a regular street drug since before the 1960s.

You blew in on the origin of the drug, admit it.
If yesterday's crank wasn't stout enough we just did more and more until it was.

"According to DEA sources, Mexican manufacturers and distributors have replaced the outlaw motorcycle groups which had produced methamphetamine supplies for over twenty years." I was not getting this crank from Mexican manufacturers. It was the late 70s and early 80s.

What the fuck is wrong with you? You make one error after another thinking no one will see it. It's been "quite quiet" because no one has had the wretched manners of btnben and thrown out red herrings, misinformation, ugly character assassination or just plain bullshit for the rest of us to sweep up.

I've rather enjoyed my day here discussing relevant and important subjects with people who can read and comprehend. We haven't always agreed but we have not been goaded into hatefulness either. You might try that sometime.

It would be nice if you would "be out all day" tomorrow, too.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

dolson's picture

dolson

Sat, 04/14/2012 - 19:39

Old Man Marietta Melt Down.
Better retrace your steps old timer.
Tomorrow will be the same.

Go ahead, enjoy yourselves - it's getting late, much later than you think.

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 04/14/2012 - 20:49

It would be so much more fun if you retraced them and learned something.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 04/14/2012 - 17:09

That is precisely why we "let them rip..." but it also why we tried tried not to let that happen all that often.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 04/14/2012 - 22:36

What is the difference from letting a crank addict rip and letting an alcoholic spew a 20 minute drunkalogue?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 04/14/2012 - 22:32

(no difference)

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

gigi

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 16:54

You didn't create it, Clara, but you do everything in your power to make sure it continues as is and stays as far away from reason and progress as possible. You encourage a stagnant system.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 17:14

From whta I gather, though, GiGi, AA isn't interested in being anything other than what it is, and that is a non-professional group of people getting together to discuss a shared problem. People come to AA expecting it to be about alcohol. Why should it change?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 17:25

Clara asked "Why should it change?"

Because supposedly you have found a group that helps save peoples' lives from addiction. I'd think it would be of utmost importance to share that with everyone who is slowly dying from substance abuse.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

gigi

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 17:25

Using a substance to the point of addiction is the shared problem. Lots of people with drug problems come to AA because they find NA meetings to be less than helpful. Many are told (by counselors in rehab) to go to AA instead of NA. Why should they be iced out when they get there?

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

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