Those posters who are familiar with the OP will know the concept dreamt up by Orange. It is an imaginary (as yet) organisation whose aim is to save the newcomer from the grasps of the cult (sounds so ominous...lol). In reality, I'm sure that most of the anti folk on here went to AA because they were misinformed . The problem then was that, after entering through those doors, the REAL job of misinformation began.
I've noticed, over the last few days, new names logging in. Several haven't posted yet, and I thought it could be a good idea to have a thread every few weeks/months about what is happening here as a forum, what plans do people have to get the truth out there, and even how they feel about not going to meetings etc. Just an idea.
gigi
Wed, 04/11/2012 - 19:35
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Rescue me
I've been thinking quite a lot about this topic lately. On the one hand, I'm really happy not going to meetings the these days. On the other hand, I have to seriously ask myself what is the point of my knowing the damage AA can do to some people, knowing that their are options out there, knowing that none of us have to buy into religious dogma and pseudo therapy of AA if I'm not letting people in on the secret? What do I do now?
I think about going back to AA for the sole purpose of educating newcomers as best I can and pointing them towards people, resources and ideas that may give them some real help, hope and power. The problem is that I just haven't figured out how to do that yet. I'm trying to figure out how I would accomplish this without coming across as a bitter nut-job with an axe to grind. Is it possible to share a positive message that runs counter to AA's teaching in an actual AA meeting? I suppose I have to get to the point where I'm willing to put myself out there. And I need to be confident that I will be doing no harm.
"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."
dandammit
Fri, 05/25/2012 - 07:18
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.
.
Clara
Thu, 04/12/2012 - 07:44
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I've always understood this
I've always understood this point, but what I don't get about those parties that want to go into AA meetings with the intent of highjacking it is what do you REALLY have to offer that they cannot find for themselves? Some people truly do benefit from f2f meetings because of the fellowship, and unless these Paul Reveres of the Options are willing to start SMART meetings or SOS in their areas, what are you really giving them? Aside from the "AA didn't work for me so it won't work for you...," a point I truly don't believe, I think what you bring to these people is the possibility that they will adopt a belief that "I don't need anything but MEEE!" I don't think it is fair. If AA isn't for them, they will be able to determine that for themselves.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
JR Harris
Thu, 04/12/2012 - 07:53
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AA only works for a portion of the 5% that stay
AA only works for the 5% of the people that stay with the program. Out of that 5% a large percentage are made into martyrs because the program fails them and they end up in jails, institutions or death.
I believe we are trying to save the percentage of the 5% that stay from dying due to the death cult called AA that celebrates those that fail the voodoo program as a way to grow the cult. I at least am part of the 95% that left.
Think about it, 95% of the people can't be all wrong...........
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
alkieanon
Fri, 05/04/2012 - 06:26
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Think about it, 95% of the people ain't all here on OPF
Think about it, 95% of the people ain't all here on OPF.
At best, OPF is 0.01% of the 95%. So 94.99% of the rest of the people can't be all wrong either ....
JR Harris
Fri, 04/13/2012 - 23:46
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Think about it, that 95% isn't in AA either
They came and ran from the cult. I doubt if 1% make it to the Orange Papers. If only 5% stay a year and they have 1.5 million minions that stay, that means that they have 28.5 million unhappy people a year that tried the cult and left that didn't die because of leaving. That also means that over the last 10 years 285,000,000 ran from the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous. Isn't it pathetic that they allow the cult to live with those types of numbers?
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
alkieanon
Fri, 05/04/2012 - 06:27
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Veni, Vidi, Vici
Veni, vidi, vici.
People who leave may be "happy, joyous, and free".
The 94.99% of people who leave merely congratulate themselves for graduating, move on with life, and harbor no ill will. The remaining 0.01%, well ....
People who stay may be "happy, joyous, and free." The fact that people are remaining is "the proof of the pudding is in the eating".
JR Harris
Sat, 04/14/2012 - 08:02
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They aren't free, they're brainwashed into saying that
Have you ever read "Animal Farm?" The ones that stay are just like Boxer the horse, when they are no longer of any use they are sold to the glue factory. In AA's case the lowlife Bill Wilson chanters make martyrs out of the ones that the voodoo program fails. The people that do that are a disgrace to the human race.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
btnben
Sat, 04/14/2012 - 08:14
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That's a great analogy JR
One that might be fun to take a bit further.
The Old Major - Frank Buchman
Snowball & Napoleon - Bill W and Dr Bob
Mollie (the white mare) or Clover - Clara
The Sheep - obvious
Squealer - Clancy I
My favorite - Benjamin. Crotchety, cynical old bastard who always maintained "Same shit, different day"...lol. I hated this book at school - it was one of the books I had to learn and you can read it in an hour. Thanks for reminding me of it JR.
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
alkieanon
Sat, 04/14/2012 - 08:40
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That's a great analogy if one never leaves the Farm
That's a great analogy if one never leaves the Farm. Wonder what happens the remaining 23 hours of the day outside of the meeting?
alkieanon
Sat, 04/14/2012 - 08:36
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So where is that Glue Factory?
So where is that Glue Factory? Don't smell the glue (but smell something else). Definite not sniffing the glue.
becket
Sat, 04/14/2012 - 11:37
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btnben is not British, he's
btnben is not British, he's not looking to offer SMART meetings in his community, and he is not looking at the double nickel age bracket. He's just been brainwashed to say those things.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
becket
Sat, 04/14/2012 - 11:30
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285,000,000,000,000,000,000
285,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ran away from AA in the last ten years.
Do you have any figures on how many of those were relapsing alcoholics and decided the bar was more fun than the meeting? How many were retreads? How many had committed their first financial scam years before they ever tried AA? What am I thinking . . . did any of these people actually try to implement any of the program into their lives?
How many of those gazillion people are sober today? I want answers, man!
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
harrassedgirl
Thu, 11/01/2012 - 15:20
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It is hard to find this place
I would imagine that it is only the people that truly suffered at the hands of AA members are the ones that end up doing the research that leads you to this site. I think I had to google "harrassed by AA" or something to get here, and then once I knew of this forum, I had trouble trying to refind it until now I figured out to use "orange papers" and "forum", so I am going to say this is not the easiest site in the world to just stumble across. Thank god it is here because everything else you get after searching is just pro-AA bullcrap.
I don't know, I have mixed feelings because I feel like my case of harrassment is rare and specific to me and somewhat based on the actual personalities I came across, and also on some misunderstandings and misinformation. I think some people may be helped by the program. I do not know anymore.
My point is, however, that the 95% of the population are not going to find this place unless they are part of the small% that is majorly harrassed by the 5%.
lonestar
Thu, 11/01/2012 - 16:31
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I think it's important here,
I think it's important here, harrassed girl, to quit measuring yourself against the five percent, the ninety-five percent, the whatever percent, and just take care of yourself. All that measuring does is act as a qualifier for taking or not taking action - "is my case really severe?" "My case isn't THAT bad!"
Of course your case is specific to you! Look at who is doing the abusing. You don't need to attribute it any further than that. The person who is willing to be abusive and screw with your mind is the one who needs to be taken down. Get an attorney, please!
"The fool is always beginning to live."
seagal007
Thu, 11/01/2012 - 17:35
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Lonestar and I
are both strongly urging you to take action here. An abuser wants to make you feel different and alone. Dont worry about what anybody thinks please take action and get help.
Understanding and Empowerment=Freedom
dandammit
Fri, 05/25/2012 - 07:18
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.
.
becket
Thu, 04/12/2012 - 08:13
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"Take it to the jails,
"Take it to the jails, prisons and institutions"?
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
massive
Fri, 04/13/2012 - 00:14
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gigi- I feel just like you do
gigi- I feel just like you do sometimes. I did do this a few months ago with another women.
I talked with her yesterday and she said we really stirred it up down there. It was about an hour from me. They Said either they hated us and some said it was the best share they ever heard. We laughed so hard!!!!. I was tearing up the BS in the BB and I promoted the other options and Smart!!!
I called a Prison in Chino yesterday and spoke to them about what they are doing with addiction and those who have problems. He said " Oh no we know AA doesn't work. We are very interested in what you have.
I'll be sending Hank Hayes new book. This is my activism. I feel great when I do it.
I will form a non profit to promote the other options and to be here for those traumatized and harmed by AA/NA.
AA destroys families.
If each of us took some small action like this reaching out in our own community we could make the wave really flow and create the change to occur faster.
anyone who wants to know what I am doing please contact me directlt
makeaasafer@gmail.com
Massive
Clara
Fri, 04/13/2012 - 08:45
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Again, promotion without
Again, promotion without reality. Why not START SMART and/or SOS meetings (which is really AA, too) so that you can really offer someone something beyond blather? I guess it is easier to try to make yourself a star for an hour instead of really giving someone something with take home value.
As for AA, I know a club full of people that say it saved their families. I know that I have mine because of it.
Monica, I hope one day you constructively deal with your anger over a choice you made 37 years ago. If AA wasn't for you, you could have walked out the door at any time. This forum would have people believe that 95% of people do that easily.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
wired to the moon
Wed, 04/11/2012 - 20:11
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btnben....
"...what plans do people have to get the truth out there..."
What plans do you have to get the truth out there?
Anyway, would you really like to spoil the party of someone who had bought, hook line and sinker, the preachings of AA if it had actually aided them in achieving sobriety? Would you not be scared of ruining the lovely little fantasy world they had cocooned themselves in? Or do you feel it's your duty for everyone to know your version of the truth?
By the way, I used to visit a lovely little but n ben in the Highlands of Scotland years ago. Nice place.
Penis.
btnben
Thu, 04/12/2012 - 04:33
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Small potatoes....
What am I doing to get the truth out there?
First - I haven't been to a meeting in 15 months, so you can knock a whole 1 off of AA's membership count...lol. I am currently working on opening the first SMART meeting in my town. This will be held at a new local homeless hostel.
I have been asked to give a short talk to a group of homeless charities from the area about self-help in substance abuse. This was meant to be next week, but charities are notorious at being difficult to organise meetings, so date still to be arranged. I was asked after an initial discussion with the local director of a charity who didn't like AA because of the negativity, but didn't know of any alternatives. He does now...lol
On a personal note, my neighbour downstairs has had a long term problem with alcohol, as did I. We have often talked about it and I've directed him to these pages. Just over a year ago he asked me why I didn't go to AA and I told him, but I also told him to go along and make up his own mind. He came back laughing and saying things about nutjobs, so I think he's got the message. He's nor quit yet, but he's getting happier. Time will tell. I know from myself these things don't happen overnight - no white light, that's the drugs...lol
If AA was harmless and just a fantasy cocoon then I wouldn't do anything about it. What a great source of amusement - a bunch of whack jobs who think God has made them stop drinking...lol. Any sane person would want that one to run and run...lol. The problem is that AA is dangerous. Last summer I went to the funeral of a dear friend who just couldn't get rid of the idea she was powerless. In reality she was depressed. When the depression hit hard she would drink, and having started, her alcoholism "disease" would kick in and she wouldn't stop. Heart gave out in the end. And, would you believe it, one of the faithful had her ATM card and cleared out her account after she had died. Sort of sums it up really
As I said in the title, small potatoes, but every journey starts with the first step...lol. I think it was Samuel Becket in Waiting for Godot, but I can't find the quote, who said "No-one made a bigger mistake when they did nothing because they could only do a little"
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
Clara
Thu, 04/12/2012 - 08:00
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Ben, for what it is worth, I
Ben, for what it is worth, I am actually proud of you. Instead of just spewing, you are doing what I have asked of the others. AA is program of action, and I feel that is what you are doing here. You are PROVIDING an alternative. I think it is bad form to go to an AA meeting with the intent of highjacking it because you just don't bellieve AA works. There are going to be dozens of people in a room at any given time that believe it does and has worked for them, so I agree with Monica when she comes back from her efforts and tells us how people rolled their eyes at her, but it was worth it to her because she said what she wanted to so screw them. I am sure that there are people out there mitigating the damage she does. You, however, are in fact doing something more worthwhile. There are people that truly do need to not be left alone with their alcoholism, whether you consider it a disease or "the enemy." That alone can be the value of a meeting. I never discourage anyone to check anything out. I don't have to applaud AA or disparage anything else out there that might help someone. There is nothing wrong with telling someone to have a look. I don't have to call anyone names or to brand any program badly. I have been very surprised at how many people came to AA that felt rejected by gods of their childhoods and wanted the very aspect of the program that doesn't work for you. I know others that left because of the religious nature.
I am sorry about your friend, Ben. I don't feel powerlessness in my program. In fact, I felt very empowered by it. The only powerlessness I have is when booze enters my body. My work was to change how I felt about booze and to stay stopped.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara
Thu, 04/12/2012 - 08:13
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one thing that should happen,
one thing that should happen, Wired, is that instead of just saying you want to go to meetings and blare out how AA didn't work for you and that there are options is to remember that these people know that. But if you are going to do that, it ony stands to reason that you have to PROVIDE those options. That is how AA meetings even got started. Originally, people got sober buy ordering the BB through mailorder. The idea of meetings got started when the drunks that stayed with Bill started congregating int he living room. Meetings get started all over with just two drunks and a coffee pot. That is how it got so big. But it takes more than desire. It takes seeing a need and being willing to fill it. When I was telling Anti that I knew women that had attended women's meetings their whole AA career, thus avoiding anything ike abuse or 13 stepping, she countered with, "not every woman can go to a women's meeting." BS. Sure she can. START one. She made it out as if there is someone in NY that makes these decisions.
Every single person on these boards who is convinced that there needs to be an alternative to AA that is reasonable and accessible needs to be willing to start a meeting in their area. That SMART has existed since 1992 but only has 300 meetings is rather unimpressive, IMO. SOS has been around for almost 30 years but has three meetings in LA. Even if you DON'T agree with the meeting model and feel that if you go and tell them that they can just go online... that's weak. Some people find genuine benefit to fellowship or camaraderie.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
avogadno
Sat, 04/14/2012 - 12:04
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Meetings or programs are not necessary
People aren't aware that programs are not necessary. There isn't a study that shows that working any program is better than quitting on your own. I realize that many people have a preference, and maybe it is what they feel they need. However it is definitely taught that addicts MUST get in a program and this is simply not true. One of my guidelines was to get a private counselor to sort out my problems, the reasons I started using. I'm blessed with insurance and this is what made that possible and that would be an obstacle for those that want to take that route but aren't as fortunate as I. There are places that will provide free or sliding scale counseling though.
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
Clara
Sat, 04/14/2012 - 12:23
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I would say you do have a
I would say you do have a program, Avo. Yours is private counseling. I dscovered my reason for drinking through my fourth step. Some people benefit a great deal from fellowship.
If you don't mind me asking, if it was that simple, just go to a shrink, why were you in rehab?
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
becket
Sat, 04/14/2012 - 12:23
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Meetings or programs may not
Meetings or programs may not be necessary, but they should be available to those who wish to use them for support as they strive for wellness. You're right, insurance is not the luxury of many dependent or addicted people, and I have a feeling this could get worse instead of better. The hoops one must jump through to demonstrate eligibility for government programs for medical and psychological/psychiatric care are on fire: someone in the throes of withdrawal or "pulling up" from daily boozing more than likely has no earthly idea where his latest 1040 is (or if he even filed) or when he last went to the doctor or if he's had labwork done in the past year. It's very, very frustrating and time-consuming to gather this information. But it can be done if one has a mind to go through the process. I think for many it's just easier to go to meetings once in a while and try to find some support there.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
msafrany
Thu, 04/12/2012 - 05:51
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I'm Done
My days of saving newcomers are done. That is an AA idea. I am not a social worker, a therapist, or a spiritual advisor. Since I no longer practice steppism, I don;t have to pretend to be these things. I might have time for a few posts on the Orange Forum and that is it. I couldn't imagine going to AA for ANY reason, and I am not going into a daily battle with steppers over AA dogma. That would make me some kind of "live troll".
I think the most important thing a person in recovery can do is find new interests and make new friends. That is 90% of the battle.
Besides, there are thousands of other ways to be helpful to people, alcoholic or not.
But good luck. I support this forum and there is nothing I would rather see than the truth becoming common knowledge. And we all know the truth, 12 step voodoo has nothing to do with stopping drinking no matter what steppers convince themselves of.
Clara
Thu, 04/12/2012 - 07:39
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Absolutely, MS. I loved the
Absolutely, MS. I loved the fellowship the moment I walked in the door. I had put the drink down three weeks earlier, but I knew that much in my life was going to have to change and that include people, places and things. I agree very much with what you have to say in this post, although I did personally derive value in doing the steps. It just helped me clean up life and start with a fresher pov.
And I can even use today as an example. I put my dog Shamus (spelled phonetically by my father, who was even worse than I am...) down five years ago today. I remember that as a horrible day, complete with arguments with my sister over estate issues when I should have been spending his last 30 minutes of life with my dog. But my sister was relentless and I swore I would never talk her gain. It was months before I would. Her behavior through that entire estate deal was pretty reprehensible. It is only because of what I learned from those women through AA about forgiveness that I could even have rebuilt life a bit with her. Today, we live 30 miles apart and she's my biggest supporter. Could this have happened another way? Possibly, but it didn't. It helped with the montorship of those wonderful women.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
dolson
Thu, 04/12/2012 - 08:35
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My days of saving newcomers
You hit the nail on the head with this sentence. I think back to how many 'newcomers' I would see at meetings. Not many. It was usually the same old rotating cast of characters, with the old timers holding the door. This was the case with meetings of both groups I was attending. One group was based in a large city, and the other was located in a small town. The numbers were different, but the cast of characters remained a constant with both groups. There are not many newcomers to rescue.
Pretending to be an enlightened guru of recovery is taxing, and it also gets tedious. It is a relief to cast aside that mask. It was an act, and nothing more. There is nothing sane about living the fantasy life a moral titan in a self created universe. One day at a time.
Absolutely, I can relate. I also have a job and other interests in my life.
Agreed.
It is akin to hammering one's head against a brick wall. It serves no purpose.
Posting here is becoming an utter waste of time. The forum is not moderated in any fashion. There is no rating system to allow members to vote on posts. Legitimate posts would be voted to the top of the thread, and the trolling posts would be relegated to the trash bin. This would allow for real discussion, not a constant battle with the delusional steptards that attempt to derail any, and every thread in this forum.
Legitimate members are not vetted, and trolls are allowed to stand at the podium. This forum is no different than an aa group.
I agree, non 12 step outside interests, and activities are the key. Contrary to popular belief, you do not need to be rich to do so.
This is blasphemy in step land.
That is the sum of it.
Go ahead, enjoy yourselves - it's getting late, much later than you think.
Persephone In Exile
Thu, 04/12/2012 - 09:51
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Many nails, many heads there,
Many nails, many heads there, Dolson. Nice.
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
becket
Thu, 04/12/2012 - 11:18
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"There are not many newcomers
"There are not many newcomers to rescue."
This flies in the face of that alleged "recovery industry cartel" business. They are churning out newcomers by the thousands every day, are they not? Where are they all going? I'm sure many of them blow off any sort of meeting, but the remainder who are instructed to follow the 12-step program are ending up somewhere.
Where are they going?
"Besides, there are thousands of other ways to be helpful to people, alcoholic or not."
"This is blasphemy in step land."
I think this is an unfair assessment.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
wired to the moon
Thu, 04/12/2012 - 06:20
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Fair play btnben...
Fair play btnben....you answered my questions perfectly I think.
I've not been to an AA meeting for years now so you can knock 2 off AA's membership count!
I wonder why SMART hasn't taken off the way AA has/did? That's one of the probelms with AA, it's EVERYWERE! Finding a lot of SMART meetings just isn't going to happen unless you are prepared to travel quite a bit.
I think "getting the truth out" IS promoting SMART or other alternatives. I still can't see a way to 'gatecrash' to AA meetings and 'save' the 'unfortunates'.
I was being deadly serious by the way when I asked you if you were not scared of ruining peoples little fantsay worlds. I'm not so sure I could live with myself if I convinced a 'believer' they were deluding themself.
Well done on being prepared to give a talk to homeless charities. Alcohol and substance abuse is probably the main factor in making people homeless in the first place. ANOTHER way of getting the truth out there. I just wonder, will you 'trash' AA or avoid the subject of the oraganisation? How will you approach that one I wonder? Especially if there are health proffessionals there and I think you know as well as me that there are A LOT of health proffessionals waving the AA banner. Will you have difficulty with that one? I wonder if you will give AA 'fair' stage or if your own personal beliefs will prevent you from doing so?
Sorry to hear about your friend that died. Alcoholism, (if I can use that word?) sure is a fucker and your friend getting her bank account cleaned out by some scum bag is unbelievable!? I hope the thieving bastard got put in the clink for it?
I think you have a very healthy attitude to "getting the truth out". I don't believe in anti AA terrorism if you know what I mean? I could see a situation were someone on this forum maybe gets a bit overzealous and ends up getting in trouble with some authority or who knows, maybe gets their head kicked in with 25 pissed off AA members?
Anyway, enough said from me. Thanks for your comments.
Peace.
btnben
Thu, 04/12/2012 - 06:51
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Bubble bursting
I know what you mean about that and I do appreciate it could be a problem. When I was in AA there was a guy who was one of the real backbone types. Not a BB basher, but someone who actually fed people when they were hungry, bought them cigarettes and even put people up from time to time. He was old school AA - over 30 years sober. He had his own business and he had a yard with a big caravan that he used as an office. It was fairly central and over the years had become a sort of informal AA meeting place. Anytime of the day you were more than likely to meet another AA there having tea or coffee and just chatting. It was a comfortable set up and I'm sure helped a lot of people with the lonely days.
He retired last summer for health reasons and sold his business. I met him just before Christmas and we went out for lunch. In just a few months he had changed so drastically. His health was worse but he also seemed to have lost any joy of living. I asked him straight - he's not the kind of guy who bullshits - and he admitted that, since he no longer had his business and the constant flow of AA people, he was lonely. It was sad - not in a pathetic way, just sad. It's a good point you've brought up and one I hope I will always bear in mind. Righteous indignation can be very destructive.
As far as putting AA down, with professional people I've not found that you have to. These people, as you say, have been working with substance abuse for decades. They know the effectiveness of AA, ie nil...lol. The attitude used to be "well, they don't do any harm and we can tick off the box that says 'Substance Abuse Help'". Maybe not that cynical, but there was not really any alternatives.
Financial cutbacks have hit charities and funding authorities hard. People are having to look at what they spend their money on. Also, accountability and the fear of litigation have started to make people look more closely at what they are advising. I've only done this once, but instilling the idea that you may be putting a vulnerable person into the hands of a sponsor who has had no training or criminal records checks is usually enough to get professionals looking for alternatives. You don't really have to rubbish AA too much - it's so out there in this day and age that minimal scrutiny reveals it as the lunacy it is.
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
Clara
Thu, 04/12/2012 - 08:03
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This is the most reasonable
This is the most reasonable thing I have ever seen you post, Ben. While I know professional counselors in AA that wouldn't be there themselves if they didn't think it worked, I liked your friend's take because that is how we were in MB. I haven't found that here.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
becket
Thu, 04/12/2012 - 08:20
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"Righteous indignation can be
"Righteous indignation can be very destructive."
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
dolson
Thu, 04/12/2012 - 11:21
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I was being deadly serious by
Ruining people's fantasy worlds? You mean the one you live in danny bennison?
Breaking news - you are fucking bat shit insane. You are a dangerous sex offender danny.
Only an insane troll like you would demand that the nazi death worship cult of aa gets a fair stage.
I very much doubt you find criminal activity unbelievable.
That would be a good fit for you.
You mean telling the truth?
This is a foreign concept for you.
What authority?
The aa police?
Or just with you?
You're quite the fervent aa thug and criminal, aren't you?
That's more than enough, you fucken lunatic.
Go ahead, enjoy yourselves - it's getting late, much later than you think.
btnben
Thu, 04/12/2012 - 11:39
Permalink
Only half answered...lol
I've just read back and saw your question about SMART. I saw it first time, but then I saw something shiny and immediately forgot it...lol.
Why hasn't SMART taken off like AA? Several reasons I think. First that comes to mind is the times. Bill W started AA in 1938 or so with some pretty dubious financial practices that he managed to con his way out of. If he had tried the same thing in 2008 he would be in prison within the year, so AA wouldn't have got off the ground.
In the 30s there was less science - medicine as we know it was new then. Snake-oil sales were much higher then than now, whatever the snake oil. Decades of people being conned have made them more wary, so the actual market for mumbo-jumbo is much smaller.
Additionally, I think the professional/medical community is coming to the conclusion that you can't treat alcohol abuse as a single entity. It is the underlying factors, and I mean depression and abuse not "character defects" than need to be addressed. And they need to be addressed on an individual basis. One size fits all just doesn't work.
When people (whoever they are...lol) finally come to realise that you don't need ANY groups to quit alcohol, you just have to stop drinking, then the battle will be more than half over. It ain't a disease - diseases are respectable - it's a bad habit - you fuck yourself up.
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
becket
Thu, 04/12/2012 - 12:17
Permalink
From www.encyclopedia.com:
From www.encyclopedia.com:
The 1930s: Medicine And Health: People in the News
American Decades | 2001 | 700+ words | Copyright
THE 1930s: MEDICINE AND HEALTH: PEOPLE IN THE NEWS
In 1937 Dr. L. B. Alford, Saint Louis, stated that brain operations indicated that a small section of the left side of the posterior brain in right-handed persons controlled the functioning of the mind.
Dr. C. W. Alvarez of the Mayo Clinic found disease of the gallbladder to be the most frequent cause of indigestion or abdominal distress in 1930.
Drs. Charles Armstrong and W. T. Harrison, National Institute of Health, reported in 1935, that a solution of alum used as a spray enabled 74 percent of the animals so treated to survive infantile paralysis. In 1936 the doctors announced their nasal spray of picric acid-sodium alum offered hope of a successful preventive for infantile paralysis; the drugs used in the spray could be purchased at any pharmacy
Working independently in 1937, Dr. Charles Armstrong, National Institute of Health, and Drs. E. W. Schultz and L. P. Gebhardt, Stanford University, found that inoculation with a zinc sulphate or with picric acid and alum solution successfully immunized monkeys against infantile paralysis.
Autopsy reports studied by Drs. D. L. Augustine and W. W. Spink, Harvard University, revealed in 1936 that 20 percent of the individuals had suffered from trichinosis, the disease caused by worm-infested pork.
On 8 August 1930 O. T. Avery and René Dubos announced that an enzyme, isolated from New Jersey cranberry bog soil, was effective in treating pneumonia in mice.
Dr. L. W. Aycock of Harvard Medical School announced in 1930 that infantile paralysis was due to the destruction of muscle-controlling nerve cells in the spinal cord.
In 1934 Dr. L. W. Aycock of the Harvard University Infantile Paralysis Commission stated that studies suggested susceptibility to polio might be inherited.
In 1930 Dr. W. S. Baer of Johns Hopkins Medical School introduced the use of maggots into infected bone cavities of osteomyelitis sufferers to remove the dead tissue and products of infection with no harm done to the patient.
Subjecting pituitary and adrenal glands to X rays was found an effective treatment for diabetes in animals, according to Drs. B. O, Barnes, W. L. Culpepper, and J. H. Hutton, Chicago, in 1935.
In 1931 Dr. Walter Bauer and associates at the Massachusetts General Hospital discovered that the intense pain of lead colic, gallstone colic, and urethral colic was relieved by slow injections of calcium chloride into the veins.
In 1938 Dr. H. C. Bazett, University of Pennsylvania, stated that all individuals had 30 percent more blood in spring than in fall and winter.
In 1937 George Beadle and Edward Tatum developed the one gene-one enzyme theory that stated that all chemical reactions in the cell are controlled by enzymes and that each enzyme is controlled by a single gene; the two won the 1958 Nobel Prize for medicine or physiology for their work.
Dr. Alfred Blalock of Vanderbilt University Medical School studied surgical shock in 1931 and recommended the replacement of fluid loss stemming from surgery as a valuable treatment.
Dr. Sidney Bliss of Tulane University reported evidence in 1931 that lack of iron in the diet was the cause of pellagra.
Dr. Emil Bogen, Olive View, California, asserted in 1934 that cancer of the breast in women was the penalty for not nursing their children.
Drs. Paul Boyle and David Weisberger, Harvard University, reported in 1937 that a deficiency of vitamin C, the cause of scurvy, might also be the cause of pyorrhea.
Professors Jean Broadhurst, Columbia University, and Gladys Cameron, New York University, reported in 1938 that their researches indicated scarlet fever was caused by a nasal virus rather than a streptococcus.
In 1934 Drs. Maurice Brodie and A. R. Elvidge, working under Dr. W. H. Park, New York City Department of Health, produced a serum for infantile paralysis that was apparently successful on a test group of children. Their findings confirmed Dr. Simon Flexner' s theory that the olfactory nerve might be the gateway by which the virus penetrated the nervous system.
In 1935 Dr. Maurice Brodie, New York Health Department, working under the direction of Dr. W. H. Park, announced that animals had been successfully immunized against sleeping sickness.
In 1931 Dr. J. Bronfenbrenner and associates at Washington University developed a process for changing the chemical nature of the proteins in protective or curative serums.
In 1932 Dr. Reginald Burbank reported the development of a vaccine for chronic rheumatism.
Dr. C. G. Burn, Yale University, reported the isolation of a disease-producing bacterium from patients dying of meningo-encephalitis in 1935.
In 1931 Dr. Walter B. Cannon of the Harvard Medical school discovered a new hormone, sympathin, which is similar to adrenalin; in 1933 Cannon announced two forms of the hormone sympathin.
Dr. Robert Chambers, New York University, stated in 1937 that injection of grain cornstarch caused almost complete disappearance of cancerous growths in 45 percent of the experimental mice.
Patients with slowly knitting broken bones might be helped by the administration of hydrochloric acid, according to Drs. W. W. Cornell and Alice R. Bernheim, New York City, in 1936.
Dr. G. W. Crile reported in 1931 successfully treating diabetes, goiters, and stomach ulcers by severing the nerve connection between the brain and the adrenal glands.
Studies on deafness made by Dr. S. J. Crowe of the Johns Hopkins Medical School in 1931, showed that certain forms might be due to alteration in the rigidity of certain small bones in the inner ear and that pressure on a membrane in the inner ear might increase hearing.
The study of brain electrograms in 1936 by Drs. Hallowell Davis and Pauline A. Davis, Harvard Medical school, revealed that identical twins have identical patterns of brain activity.
In 1935 Dr. D. B. Dill, Harvard University, made experiments which led him to advise athletes to eat starches and sugars during the twenty-four hours before an athletic event.
In 1937 studies of water moccasin snake serum were made by Dr. R. L. Ditmars, assisted by Dr. C. R. Schroeder, New York Zoological Park, which confirmed the hypothesis that the drug was helpful in the treatment of epilepsy.
Colds and influenza were probably caused by filterable viruses, according to Dr. A. R. Dochez, Rockefeller Institute, in 1936.
In 1939 vitamin K was isolated and synthesized by Edward Adelbert Doisy; the biochemist won the 1943 Nobel Prize for his work.
In 1936 Drs. L. R. Dragstedt, John van Prohaska, and H. P. Harms, University of Chicago, reported that the new hormone lipocaic, obtained from the pancreas, might prove effective as a supplement to insulin in the treatment of diabetes.
Dr. George Draper pointed out in 1931 that until the exact mode of polio transmission was known, questions of isolation and quarantine presented great difficulties.
On 25 October 1930 Dr. Philip Drinker of Harvard Medical School reported successful treatment of acute respiratory failure in polio cases with the use of an artificial respirator.
René Jules Dubos, at the Rockefeller Institute for Medical Research, isolated tyrocidine and gramicidine from swamp soil in 1939; effective against a broad spectrum of gram-positive bacteria, they were too toxic for human use.
In 1934 Dr. J. G. Dusser de Barenne, Yale University, described a method of destroying any number of consecutive layers of nerve cells in the cerebral cortex of the brain; the discovery was expected to aid in the study of which particular areas controlled various bodily activities.
In 1931 Dr. R. E. Dyer and associates at the United States Public Health Service, demonstrated that fleas, long suspected of transmitting typhus, were indeed the disease vectors.
Dr. H. L. Eder, Santa Barbara clinic, found in 1935 that the administration of iron would help lessen or prevent sunburn of persons who were abnormally sensitive to the sun.
Drs. C. A. Elsberg, Irwin Levy, and E. D. Brewer, Neurological Institute, New York, reported success in locating brain tumors in more than one hundred patients by testing their sensitivity to odors of coffee and the chemical citral in 1936.
In 1933 Drs. Conrad A. Elvehjem and W. S. Sherman, University of Wisconsin, announced that the role of copper in the treatment of pernicious anemia was to transform iron into hemoglobin.
Dr. Conrad A. Elvehjem and associates in the agricultural chemistry department of the University of Wisconsin discovered nicotinic acid as a cure for pellagra in 1937.
In 1936 an extract from the placenta was found to be helpful in treating patients with hemophilia, according to Drs. R. C. Ely and C. F. McKhann, Boston; the same extract also stopped bleeding after mastoid and adenoid operations.
On 15 March 1937 Bernard Fantus developed the first modern blood bank at the Cook County Hospital in Chicago.
In 1931 Dr. S. M. Feinberg announced the relief of asthma symptoms by raising patients' body temperatures through the passage of electrical currents through their bodies.
Dr. N. S. Ferry, Detroit, reported the successful use of a spinal meningitis antitoxin in 1935.
In 1936 Drs. Isidore Finkelman and Daniel Haffron, Elgin, Illinois, reported that their studies indicated that schizophrenia was the result of a disturbance of the hypothalamus in the forebrain.
Drs. Earl W. Flosdorf and Stuard Mudd of the University of Pennsylvania prepared the first dried human blood serum on 21 December 1933.
Drs. Earl W. Flosdorf and L. A. Chambers, University of Pennsylvania, advanced the theory in 1934 that high-pitched sound, which kills bacteria, may aid in producing immunity to disease; such sounds were found to catalyze chemical changes in egg albumen.
Dr. Walter Freeman, Washington, D.C., demonstrated a way of taking pictures of the living brain in 1934.
In 1935 Yale scientists John Farquhar Fulton and Carlyle F. Jacobsen observed that primates who had had a bilateral prefrontal lobotomy were calm, even when presented with difficult problems.
In 1933 Dr. Sidney Garfield created a prepaid medical plan to provide medical care for five hundred workers building a California aqueduct.
In 1938 Dr. Sidney Garfield established a prepaid group health plan for Grand Coulee Dam workers at the request of Henry J. Kaiser.
Daily administration of insulin to schizophrenics resulted in the recovery of sanity by 68 percent of the patients, according to Dr. Bernard Gluck, Ossining, New York, in 1936.
After treating dementia praecox patients with large doses of insulin in 1937, Dr. D. S. Griffin, Central State Hospital, Norman, Oklahoma, reported that eight of twenty-nine patients completely recovered their sanity and the others were improved.
Drs. Arthur Grollman and W. M. Firor, Johns Hopkins University, isolated crystals of the hormone of the adrenal gland cortex in 1933.
In 1938 Dr. Robert E. Gross surgically repaired a congenital heart defect.
Typhoid carriers might be rendered harmless by the application of X ray to the livers and gallbladders of the affected persons, according to Dr. Lars Gulbrandsen, University of Illinois, in 1935.
In 1936 Dr. O. J. Hagen, University of Minnesota, reported the identification of a new disease, terminal or regional ileitis, that had in the past probably been confused with cancer and intestinal diseases; the prognosis of ileitis was favorable if early diagnosis and treatment were obtained.
In 1930 Dr. F. S. Hammett found that sulfahydril compounds stimulated the rapid growth of tissues, healing stubborn wounds.
In 1938 Dr. Edith Haynes, Indiana University School of Medicine, reported that sores kept wet with a water solution of pectin healed rapidly.
Drs. H. E. Himwich and J. F. Fazikas, Yale University, found that sugar was a source of energy for the brain in 1935.
Subjecting rabies virus for a short time to ultraviolet rays allowed Dr. H. L. Hodes and his associates at the Rockefeller Institute for Medical Research to prepare an effective but nonvirulent type of vaccine in 1938.
The injection of meningococcus serum into the veins rather than into the spinal cord of meningitis patients reduced the death rate to 11.8 percent, according to Dr. A. L. Hoyne, Chicago, in 1936.
In 1931 Dr. W. C. Hueper developed a leukemia treatment serum from rabbit blood by injecting leukemic white blood cells raised in cultures from patients' blood into the blood of rabbits.
In 1933 Dr. A. S. Hyman announced an "artificial pacemaker" that had restored life to 60 percent of the patients whose hearts had stopped through shock, when used within five or ten minutes after the heart stopped beating.
A device to take infrared ray photographs that reveal early stages of heart trouble was made by Dr. A. S. Hyman and his associates at Beth David Hospital, New York, in 1935.
In 1932 Drs. Raphael Isaacs and C. C. Sturgis of the University of Michigan developed a chemically pure liver extract that could be administered intravenously in the treatment of pernicious anemia.
Dr. Benjamin Jablons, New York, reported in 1937, that tubulin, extracted from animal kidneys and used in the treatment of nephritic hypertension, had restored patients from uremic coma.
Dr. H. A. Kelly of Johns Hopkins University reported continued success with electrical surgery in treating cancer in 1930.
In 1937 Dr. J. F. Kelly, Creighton University, Omaha, reported that X-ray treatment of gangrene was successful in 100 percent of the cases when used within twenty-four hours of the discovery of the disease; the treatment effectively removed the necessity for amputations in most cases.
Dr. Garnet King, Los Angeles, reported a method of preheating to make ether nonexplosive and pneumonia-free in 1937.
In 1936 Dr. H. A Kipp, Pittsburgh, during an operation, measured the variations in bile pressure and found that laughing, coughing, and standing up affected the rate of flow of bile in human beings.
A mathematical formula that diagnosed at birth congenital hip deformities that would produce lameness was described by Drs. Samuel Kleinberg and H. S. Lieberman, New York City, in 1935; remedial measures were simple if early diagnosis was made.
In 1933 Drs. W. B. Kouwenhoven and D. R. Hooper of Johns Hopkins University found that the rhythm of a beating heart could be controlled by interrupted direct currents of electricity.
Dr. S. D. Kramer, Brooklyn, announced in 1934 that he had successfully immunized animals against polio and believed that the vaccine could be adopted for human beings.
In 1933 Dr. I. N. Kugelmass of New York City reported that giving babies a solution containing gelatin, dextrose, and salt instead of the usual feedings following birth reduced the loss of weight in the newborn to 2 percent or less.
Insertion of a minute glass tube into a single capillary in the bed of a man's nail allowed Dr. E. M. Landis, University of Pennsylvania, to measure the passage of fluid through the walls of these blood vessels in 1936; this method was expected to reveal knowledge of diseases of blood vessels and edema.
In 1936 John H. Lawrence of the University of California at Berkeley introduced the radiophosphorus treatment of leukemia.
In 1932 Dr. C. D. Leake and associates at the University of California announced their discovery of a new anesthetic through the purification of divinyl oxide; it was quicker, lasted longer, and was free from the effects of other anesthesias, such as ether and chloroform.
Dr. W. G. Lennox, Harvard Medical School, reported in 1938 that insulin shock treatments relieved mild forms of epilepsy.
In 1939 Philip Levine, Rufus Stetson, Alexander Wiener, and Karl Landsteiner discovered the Rh factor in human blood.
In 1931 Dr. Erlich Lindemann of the University of Iowa announced that small doses of sodium amytal were effective in getting even the most reserved patient to discuss his or her emotions.
The virus theory of cancer was supported in 1936 by experiments conducted by Dr. Baldwin Lucke, University of Pennsylvania, who found that frogs developed kidney cancers when inoculated with cell-free dried extracts made from cancerous frog kidneys.
In 1933 John Lundy an anesthesiologist, used an intravenous barbiturate, sodium pentothal, to anesthetize a patient before surgery.
Dr. Madge T. Macklin, reporting in 1936 on cancer in human beings, stated that members of the same family tended to have the same type of cancer, in the same organ, at about the same time of life.
In 1933 Dr. M. J. Mandelbaum, New York City, developed a tiny ultraviolet lamp that could be inserted in the bronchial tubes for treatment of tuberculosis.
Dr. David Marine and his associates, of Montefiore Hospital, New York, announced in 1933 that vitamin C offered a means of controlling goiter.
Information on sleep was obtained in 1935 by Dr. L. W. Max , New York University, from the electrical currents in the arms and fingers of sleeping deaf-mute persons.
In 1933 Drs. E. V. McCollum, H. D. Kruse, and Elsa Orent, Johns Hopkins University, found that when an animal got too little magnesium in its diet, it died as a result of the faulty use of the fats by the body.
Drs. EUice McDonald and E. F. Schroeder and their associates at the University of Pennsylvania reported in 1934 that phosphatase, an enzyme in the kidneys, apparently furnished immunity to cancer.
Dr. W. A. McGee announced success in using ether injections to treat whooping cough in 1930.
In 1936 Harvard researchers H. Houston Merritt and Tracy J. Putnam developed Dilantin (diphenylhydantoin) as the first anticonvulsive treatment for epilepsy since phenobarbitol.
Dr. Richard Miller developed a camera for photographing the interior of the human ear in 1931.
In 1931 Dr. R. A. Millikan of the California Institute of Technology announced the development of a million-volt X-ray tube for cancer research.
In 1933 Dr. Marjorie B. Moore of the Abbott Laboratories and Dr. Leon Unger of Northwestern University announced that the cause of hay fever was the protein rather than the sugary or starchy constituents in pollens.
In 1933 Thomas Hunt Morgan was awarded the Nobel Prize in medicine "for his discoveries concerning the function of the chromosome in the transmission of heredity."
Dr. R. S. Morris, University of Cincinnati, reported that several conditions besides pernicious anemia were successfully treated with addisin, a newly discovered blood-forming hormone, in 1933.
In 1934 Dr. W. P. Murphy, Boston, discovered that liver extract was a cure for agranulocytosis, a fatal blood disease.
In 1935 Dr. W. P. Murphy, in collaboration with Dr. G. W. Clark, invented an inexpensive method of injecting liver extract directly into the muscle of pernicious anemia victims.
In 1938 Basil O'Connor founded the March of Dimes to finance research into poliomyelitis (also known as infantile paralysis or polio).
Dr. E. L. Opie and Dr. Jules Freund, Cornell University, reported in 1938 the discovery of a new vaccine for tuberculosis made from dead bacteria, which after two years' successful application to animals was to be tried on human beings.
A closed-plaster method for treating compound fractures used principles developed in 1937 by Lincoln, Nebraska, physician H. Winnett Orr to save Spanish Civil War fracture victims and reduce the need for amputation.
Dr. E. D. Osborne and Miss B. S. Hitchcock effectively treated ringworm infection with sodium hypochlorite in 1931.
Dr. R. L. Osborne, Columbia University, described a new local anesthetic, epicaine, which combined the action of novocaine and epinephrine without the tendency of the former to dilate peripheral blood vessels and of the latter to induce nervousness; the anesthetic was still in the experimental stage in 1937.
High blood pressure was normal for some persons and lowering the pressure was actually dangerous, according to studies made by Dr. O. H. P. Pepper, Philadelphia, in 1936.
In 1934 Dr. G. E. Pfahler, University of Pennsylvania, expressed the conviction that radioactivity could be used successfully on 75 percent of skin cancers.
Drs. Henry Pinkerton and G. M. Hass, Harvard University, investigating the filterable viruses in 1934, found evidence that the inclusion bodies might be compact clusters or colonies of minute organisms.
Dr. Bret Ratner, New York University, stated in 1936 that a fifteen-year study showed hay fever and other allergy diseases were not hereditary.
In 1938 Dr. E. T. Remmen' s report of the more than three hundred nurses and doctors at the Los Angeles Hospital attacked in 1934 and 1935 by a mysterious disease revealed that the malady was a new one, named polioencephalitis.
In 1931 Dr. H. B. Richardson and associates at Cornell University isolated a single tuberculosis germ and studied its entire life cycle.
Heart muscles, when injured in such diseases as coronary thrombosis, formed different patterns on electrocardiograms, according to Dr. Jane S. Robb and her associates, Syracuse University, who succeeded in identifying some patterns in 1935.
Dr. E. C. Rosenow, Mayo Clinic, reported in 1937 that a serum to prevent the crippling effect of infantile paralysis was being developed, based on the discovery that the virus causing the disease was a transformed streptococcus germ.
In 1936 tests of a childbirth anesthetic consisting of paraldehyde and benzyl alcohol developed by Drs. G. B. Roth and Howard Kane relieved mothers of pain and made it unnecessary to slap or hold the babies upside down at birth to start them breathing.
Dr. L. G. Rowntree, Philadelphia Institute for Medical Research, reported in 1935 that normal stature evidently depended upon the maintenance of a proper balance between the large thymus glands and the small pineal glands of growing children.
In 1937 Dr. L. G. Rowntree and his associates reported that mice fed wheat germ oil developed cancer; this was the first record of a cancerous growth produced by a vegetable substance.
In 1936 Drs. Albert B. Sabin and Peter K. Olitsky of the Rockefeller Institute grew the poliomyelitis virus in human brain cells.
Drs. Florence R. Sabin and A. L. Joyner, Rockefeller Institute for Medical Research, reported in 1938 progress in the development of a chemical treatment for tuberculosis.
Drs. W. A. Sawyer, S. F Kitchen, and Wray Lloyd of the Rockefeller Foundation announced the development of a new immunizing serum for the treatment of yellow fever in 1932.
In 1934 Dr. Franz C. Schmelkes, Belleville, New Jersey, reported a new germicide, which he called azochloramid, to be more effective than iodine or Dakin's solution.
Using a bacterium filtrate method. Dr. Gregory Schwartzman, Mount Sinai Hospital, New York City, developed a new serum for typhoid fever in 1934.
Dr. Florence Seibert, University of Pennsylvania, produced the first pure tuberculin in 1934.
Drs. Atherton Seidell and M. I. Smith, U.S. Public Health service, succeeded in obtaining crystaline vitamin B1, preventive of beriberi and other nerve disorders, in 1933.
Dr. Oliver B. Simon, Batavia, Illinois, successfully administered oxygen under the skin in 1934, a method that might eliminate the necessity of oxygen tents.
In 1933 Dr. Margaret C. Smith discovered specialized particles known as inclusion bodies in the tissues of encephalitis victims, which proved the disease was caused by a virus.
In 1938 Dr. Tom D. Spies proved that pellagra was a deficiency disease; he treated it with niacin.
In 1935 Rockefeller Institute biochemist Dr. Wendell Meredith Stanley demonstrated the proteinaceous nature of viruses, proving that they were not submicroscopic organisms as was commonly believed.
In 1936 Dr. Wendell Meredith Stanley reported that his studies with mosaic disease indicated that viruses were chemical rather than animal entities.
In 1933 Drs. W. W. Swingle, J. J. Pfiffner, and their associates at Princeton University announced that the function of the cortex of the adrenal gland was to maintain the blood supply at normal volume.
In 1937 Dr. Max Theiler developed a vaccine for yellow fever.
Dr. Walter Timme of the New York Neurological Institute announced in 1930 that a deficiency of calcium in the blood produces crossness, tiredness, and misbehavior.
In 1932 Dr. M. V. Veldee of the U.S. Public Health Service developed a new scarlet fever treatment by treating the scarlet fever antitoxin with formalin, then keeping it warm for two months; it lost its toxic quality but retained its immunizing effects.
In 1936 Miss Mary E. Warga, University of Pittsburgh, announced that identification of silicon in the lungs of silicosis patients was possible through the use of a spectroscope.
In 1933 Drs. R. M. Waters and E. A. Rovenstine, Wisconsin General Hospital, developed an oxygen tube to supplant tents in oxygen administration.
Drs. L. T. Webster and G. L. Fite, Rockefeller Institute, developed a serum in 1934 that immunized mice from encephalitis, sometimes called sleeping sickness.
Drs. Soma Weiss and R. W. Wilkins, Boston, stated in 1937 that they had discovered a previously unrecognized heart disease induced by malnutrition; vitamin B was said to be specific in treating the condition.
In 1933 Dr. D. B. Wells announced a method of treating extensive burns by a three-hour bath in tannic acid.
The 1930 prize award for Popular Science Monthly went to Dr. George H. Whipple of the University of Rochester School of Medicine and Dr. George R. Minot of Harvard Medical School for their work which led to the effective treatment of pernicious anemia by feeding liver to victims; as a result of their work, this formerly fatal disease now had an adequate and specialized treatment.
In 1934 Dr. G. H. Whipple, Rochester, New York, and Drs. G. R. Minot and W. P. Murphy, Boston, shared the Nobel Prize in medicine for a their discoveries on liver therapy in the anemias."
In 1935 Dr. L. R. Whitaker, Memorial Hospital, Boston, devised an "electric knife" that would remove large sections of the intestine and join parts without opening the intestine itself; the method was also applicable to gallbladder and other abdominal operations.
Dr. L. R. Williams of the National Tuberculosis Association reported in 1930 that from half to nine-tenths of the American population carried tuberculosis germs in their bodies and urged the entire population to have annual X-ray exams to help prevent the disease.
In 1936 Robert R. Williams synthesized thiamine (vitamin B1).
Dr. M. M. Wintrobe, Johns Hopkins Hospital, reported in 1938 that powdered yeast proved effective in the treatment for patients with pernicious anemia.
Drs. R. C. Wise and O. H. Schettler reported in 1938 that three capsules a day of carotene in oil relieved eye fatigue for industrial workers and that vitamin A was the helpful agent.
In 1933 Dr. Hans Zinsser and associates of Harvard University, working under the auspices of the U. S. Public Health Service, developed a vaccine and a serum against typhoid fever."
I wouldn't call these events, discoveries or studies "snake oil."
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
btnben
Thu, 04/12/2012 - 12:36
Permalink
Usual moron overkill...lol. Keep flooding Marietta
I wouldn't call them snake-oil either. And I didn't. You have simply proved my point - all of these advances were NEW in the 30s. People in general weren't aware of them. They were still susceptible to the old snake-oil ideas from the previous century. AA is probably the biggest example of that susceptibility.
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
becket
Thu, 04/12/2012 - 12:41
Permalink
"In the 30s there was less
"In the 30s there was less science - medicine as we know it was new then. Snake-oil sales were much higher then than now, whatever the snake oil. Decades of people being conned have made them more wary, so the actual market for mumbo-jumbo is much smaller."
Yeah, those stupid schizophrenics buying that bullshit about the hypothalamus of the forebrain. And those dumb newborns swilling solution containing gelatin, dextrose, and salt instead of the usual feedings following birth, trying to reduce their own weight loss. Snake oil sales, indeed.
The point is, you continue to make irresponsible statements, hoping no one will investigate your fantastic claims. I'm absolutely certain you will dust this off and continue as if your voice is one of authority, but please take note that somebody out here is watching what you say, even if you aren't.
I just read about a mastectomy that took place in Boston in 1811. It had nothing to do with snake oil sales. The pathology report showed that the American surgeons were beginning to understand the how cancer develops and spreads. This was eighty years before you say we were snake oil victims. Just check your facts before spewing. Thank you.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
btnben
Thu, 04/12/2012 - 12:46
Permalink
You're a fucking idiot Marietta
Just think about what you say before you flame will you? You make yourself look so foolish.
All of the huge list you produced were discoveries made in the 30s. How long does it take for something new in medicine to become mainstream? FFS - some guy came up with the idea that the imaginary disease of "alcoholism" was caused by "moral defects" and made millions out of it. Doesn't matter how clever the doctors were, the people could still be fooled.
And will you try and stop ordering people about. You are a joke. You have no authority.
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
becket
Thu, 04/12/2012 - 12:50
Permalink
You said nothing about
You said nothing about "mainstreaming" in your original post, sir. You have no place to hide.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
btnben
Thu, 04/12/2012 - 12:53
Permalink
Half a brain was assumed
Sorry if it was a mistake on your part. Next time there shall be many pictures...lol
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
becket
Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:17
Permalink
You can't slither out from
You can't slither out from under the fact that you clearly stated that medicine in the 30s was less science and more snake oil. You think because you have a thought in mind as to how your opinion will be received that everyone must forgive your oversights and your little "lapse of truth"?
"In the 30s there was less science - medicine as we know it was new then. Snake-oil sales were much higher then than now, whatever the snake oil. Decades of people being conned have made them more wary, so the actual market for mumbo-jumbo is much smaller."
Mmmm - don't think so. Please try to be more succinct when making such claims. Then you might become a bit more aware of their ambiguity or downright deceit. It was not my mistake, btnben. It was your flagrant abuse of the truth that brought this on. Yes, do please provide pictures of the snake oil salesmen who were performing brain and open abdominal surgeries in the 1930s. I would especially love to see that missing photograph of the surgery theater set up with a merchandize table loaded with snake oils. These could be offered by those scientists otherwise engaged in immune system, virus, enzyme, hormone and vaccine studies. It's a wonder they even had time to invest in their research with all that snake oil to sell. Thank you.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
btnben
Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:25
Permalink
Whose trying to slither out of anything?
You are fucking barking mad. Twice you've repeated it and still not understood it.
In the 30s there was less science (than today) - right or wrong?
Medicine as we know it (today) was new then - right or wrong (clue - your research points to right).
Snake -oil sales were much higher then than now (assumption being there had been less conning so people were more gullible)
Decades of conning (since then) have made people more wary.
Fewer pro rata, probably in absolute, numbers are likely to be conned today.
Where is your problem. Honestly - which bit are you having trouble with, I'll try and make it simpler for you.
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
becket
Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:31
Permalink
Only a silver star for an
Only a silver star for an attempt at a cover-up. No go.
I'm having a problem with the original post, as it first read without all the back-pedalling. You need not make it simpler, btnben. It is perfectly clear what your original intent was.
How does the word "assumption" fit into your non-fact-laden spew? Answer: perfectly.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
btnben
Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:37
Permalink
Marietta's way
Of saying "Oh yes - I see it now", but there's no way she can admit she's an asshat...lol
Talk about a pub bore...lol Do you find a lot of people eventually say your right and back away from you Marietta? Has it always made you wonder why you're always alone when the people should be crowding around and saying how clever you are for always being right...lol. This exchange over one post might give you few clues as to why your alone M...lol
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
becket
Thu, 04/12/2012 - 22:04
Permalink
I'm not alone, btnben. I
I'm not alone, btnben. Whatsa madda u? Can't sleep? :-)
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
JR Harris
Thu, 04/12/2012 - 12:38
Permalink
Did you notice Bill Wilson and Associates aren't on the list?
I also see no Charles B. Towns Hospital, Dr. William D. Silkworth, Oxford Group, Alcoholics Anonymous, etc... Why do you suppose that is?
Per the 1941 Saturday Evening Post article, they only had 2,000 members, and most were highly educated and very rich.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
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