Moral Defects and Addiction

It seems to be intrinsic to the 12-step philosophy that “alcoholics” have certain spiritual and moral defects that non-addicts do not have, and that any addiction is “but a symptom” of these. This is why the person who has desire to stop drinking for whatever reason and goes to AA is required to dwell on all their bad points and all the things they have ever done wrong in their lives (even if these bad deeds were not related to drinking at all). Clearly this is not helpful or relevant to stopping drinking, but it’s worth examining this strange idea.

So can a “good” person ever become addicted to a chemical substance? According to AA philosophy, no. Addiction is down to moral defects, especially “selfishness” and “ego”, rather than a person foolishly consuming too much of an addictive substance over a long enough period of time. Now I think it is true that people in the advanced stages of addiction may be “selfish” inasmuch as the desire for the next fix can be overwhelming and take precedence over everything else (you can see this in the desperation of some nicotine addicts who run out of cigarettes). But such a morally loaded term is not helpful by the time this stage is reached . Does the addictive desire for a fix really equate to intrinsic “selfishness” and moral defectiveness, or does it just indicate that the person is very addicted? The non-alcoholic husband who goes to the pub instead of helping to put the kids to bed could in fact be seen as being much more “selfish” than the addicted person who has a compulsive need for a drink.

The “ego” thing is even stranger. OK, we all know that this idea stemmed from the Buchmanite preaching that it was the human ego that turned people away from God and was therefore sinful, and this idea was carried directly over to the 12-step program (and is why the 12-step program contains no ideas whatsoever as to how to stop drinking ). But in the real world, it seems to me that getting addicted and dependent on anything is the last thing that anyone with a really massive ego would want to do. Really egocentric people want to stay in control and generally will not allow themselves to be seen to have any weaknesses or anything controlling them at all. The ideas of “ego” and “addiction” are completely unrelated, if not diametrically opposed. The pimp will get his hookers dependent on drugs in order to control them by supplying or withdrawing the drug, but he will make damn sure he never gets dependent himself. In the eyes of steppers, it will be the hookers who are the more morally defective and culpable (and will probably have to end up making amends to the pimp!).

What about the timid, insecure person with very low self-esteem who has really done very little wrong in his or her life but turns to the bottle to cope with feelings of inadequacy, loneliness, etc. and then finds himself/herself unable to stop? Is s/he an intrinsically immoral and bad person? Is encouraging such a person to dwell on all their bad points (and such a person will find a great many) really going to help them stop drinking? Might such a person not benefit much more from a program that actually builds their ego and self-esteem, and puts them in a position of power and control, instead of telling them that they are powerless and basically defective – which might have been the very feelings that led them to drink in the first place?

As for making amends, this is a very odd idea too. An alcoholic might have done things while drunk that they regret doing, which is presumably why they are making an effort to stop. (But this isn’t necessarily the motivation for a person to stop – they might be doing it for health reasons or because they are finding they just can’t function in their everyday lives, etc.) There might have been ‘harm’ to other people involved, but not necessarily. A non-violent person, for example, does not become a violent person because they develop a drink problem; a law-abiding person will not necessarily start breaking the law. And a person who genuinely feels sorry for anything they have done will apologize anyway – they don’t need to go to AA to do this, and their sobriety is certainly not dependent on whether they do or not.

Some steppers on this site got very nervous and unserene with me when I said that my partner was only harming himself when he was at his worst. They could not cope with the idea that he had not been mistreating other people and should not be made to feel endlessly guilty and apologetic, when the best ‘amends’ he could have ever made to everyone who loved him was just to get over his addiction and get back to his normal self. Genuine concern for another person, rather than harbouring a sense of grievance, martyrdom, guilt, and victimhood (as taught by Al-anon), just has no place in the 12-step program. On the other hand, making a person feel worse about themselves than they already do – after they have actually made the effort to quit - is somehow seen as being conducive to helping their continuing sobriety. Why?

I’d also like to ask some of the steppers on here where exactly the moral defects of the alcoholic start. For example, a person might drink moderately until he is 45, but develop a serious addiction at the age of 48. According to the 12 step philosophy, were those moral defects and the person’s “disobedience to spiritual principles” (and please could we have a definition of the latter) always there, or did they suddenly appear in the three years between 45 and 48?

Personally I think that “good” people can get addicted as well as “bad” people, and a person’s moral character is irrelevant and not really anyone else’s business. Getting addicted does not make a good person bad, nor does some complete bastard getting sober and going to AA make them fundamentally less of a complete bastard (as is evidenced in the behaviour and attitudes of some steppers I’ve encountered).

To sum up, I can’t see that morality, ‘spirituality’, or character have anything to do with either a person’s tendency to get addicted or their ability to get themselves sober. But over to you.

Comments

justme's picture

I totally agree with this:

Personally I think that “good” people can get addicted as well as “bad” people, and a person’s moral character is irrelevant and not really anyone else’s business.

Getting addicted to any substance, including alcohol, has nothing whatsoever to do with someone's "moral" character. Human beings are human beings. Nobody's perfect. And those addicted to alcohol do NOT have "character defects" any more than any other human being.

Clara's picture

I thought the clean up steps were good things. Not every comports themselves well when they drink, and I had some apologies that were owed. I actually think some of this would apply to the lives of most people, addicted or not.

I don't think my moral character dictated my drinking at all, but there were things associated with my drinking that I wouldn't have done sober. I am glad to have taken care of those issues.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Clara, are you saying that your drinking was NOT the result of self-centeredness?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

No but I became that way more and more through my drinking career. I started drinking because it was fun and everyone was doing it. I thought I would mature out of it when I grew up... For me, it was what it became.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

What would you say was the main factor that "dictated" your alcoholism?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

I am not sure. I just know my relationship with the stuff wasn't healthy and I wanted to give it up. But I could actually do that. I just couldn't stay stopped, and I knew unless I changed people, places and things, I wouldn't stay stopped, either. I have friends of mine on Facebook from years ago that are still hanging out in the same places, on the same stools, probably talking about the same things... If I hadn't left that drinking town with a boating problem, I'd be sitting there with them.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

"...changed people, places and things..." - Does that mean you stopped going in bars and buying drinks? Bit of a no-brainer that one...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

Yes... but you know what happens when you stop that. You realize that your friends still are partying hardy an the only real commonality you had was the drink. I actually moved to my beach house 8 hours south, joined AA and met people that don't drink. The fellowship was wonderful, and I miss it alot. I was astounded as to how wonderful those people have been to me through a trying time and I am now 27 hours away from them. What do you think those people on barstools did?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Did you really not make any friends who were not 'sitting on barstools' all the time, and that is all they did and was the sum total of their lives and existence? I must admit, that is a bit sad - and pretty unbelievable.

Clara's picture

It was unbelievable to me, too, HS. When it came right down to it, no, these were not caliber friends and I thought they were. I had people I knew through work. I had a client base that I never drank with. I knew people from the Fleet Reserve Club, the EDC Club, the Boatyard, lots of bars all over town. I believe that I KNEW just about everyone in town. But when I quit drinking, all of it changed. Of course, I physically relocated. My sponsor knew I wouldn't keep sober if I didn't. But when I read about them on Facebook, it is the same old thing. Nothing has changed for them. And if I hadn't left, it wouldn't have changed for me, either, because I still would have wanted to be friends with them. And most of them were simply barroom acquaintances and I didn't know it.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Do you think Facebook reveals all?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

Perhaps not but when you see what they choose to reveal about themselves...

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Clara, try telling your new and improved AA friends that you are enjoying just ONE glass of wine a night after dinner. See if they don't prove just as fickle as you claim your "barroom aquaintances" at the yacht club were.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

I am not sure of that. We certainly have known people that went back out or did controlled drinking, and we stayed friends with them. THEY eventually felt they had nothing in common with US. And to be fair, there were some private emails sent to me about Spike's medical marijuana. They wanted to be sure I was okay and still trending sober.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Just out of curiosity, have you ever gone prospect hunting on your old stomping grounds? If not, why? If yes, did you get anything?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

We didn't "hunt" as you guys call it. People came to our club and if you shared in a fashion they could relate to, they might ask you to sponsor them.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Lots of people never go out looking for prospects. But there are others who are unappologetic in their hunting and trapping of prey. Even likening themselves to vampires looking to feed off the newcomer. Sick, huh? That's how I ended up at my crazy group step/sharing meeting. Two days out of detox; I was easy prey.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

Pennywise's picture

You're not so easy prey anymore, eh Gigi? I've noticed the drones and gurus don't go after big prey like us anymore. Even in the rooms. Sometimes a new one will try. I'm always polite and never hostile. If they want to sit down and talk after the meeting, I'll do that. Odds are I know the scripture better than they do. Once you talk logic, they back off in a heartbeat. Why is that?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

It's fear. Logic and reason flies in the face of religious teachings. When the illogical aspects of any religion are pointed out, the believers often exhibit a fight or flight response. When they realize the scripture has no power over a certain foe, their only recourse is to retreat lest they be tainted with unholy ideas.

I just watched "Religiolous" again last night. The two Mormon guys talking about what it was like for them when they left the church was so similar to the reaction I got from my AA pals when I voiced my feelings about AA.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

Pennywise's picture

Clara said:

We didn't "hunt" as you guys call it. People came to our club and if you shared in a fashion they could relate to, they might ask you to sponsor them.

The Big Book says:

Your job now is to be at the place where you may be of maximum helpfulness to others, so never hesitate to go anywhere if you can be helpful. You should not hesitate to visit the most sordid spot on earth on such an errand. Keep on the firing line of life with these motives and God will keep you unharmed. Pg. 102.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

I've been to some weird spots. I headed meetings for a while in a men's halfway house on 501 and dragged my girfriends down there when the wpomen's halfway house started their own location. It was very interesting to go to a fairly affluent club with retirees that had used the program to rebuild their lives from nothing to down there on what seemed like a firing line with people starting from places I had never been...

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Clara, I'd hardly call a halfway house "on the firing line." Those people have already begun the indoctrination process. Bill is asking you to go to ghettos, alleys, bars, or other places where active drinkers can be found. He's not asking you to simply go to halfway houses where people are already going to AA meetings and have probably completed a treatment program beforehand. Bill says you should hunt in dangerous places and God will offer you divine protection. But I don't recommend that. However, I'd hardly call the yacht clubs and ritzy places you are familiar with "dangerous." Why not take a trip back home and see if you can recruit some of your old barroom acquaintances? Find out who is on a bender and try to visit them early in the morning when they are not drunk but still badly hungover. You can only keep it if you give it away, and I think the Big Book is asking you to do more besides chairing meetings for those already in AA. Get out there and spread the word! It's your OWN ass you'd be saving in the end.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

I have talked to people in my past about my life changes because they've noticed and have told them what I have done. I've also said that I am willing to help if they would ever want or need it. Bill also says don't push. You are free to your interpretation, Penny.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

But you agree that character defects, specifically selfishness, were the root of your troubles, right?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

I did have some issues that were constant throughout my life.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

And your boozing was a result of those selfish character issues, right?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Pennywise's picture

Why? If God removed your obsession to drink, what difference does it make what town you live in or where you hang out?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

Because people also change toward you. My sponsor knew me and he believed that I would not stay sober if I didn't make a break. It can take a while for that miracle to happen for people, Penny. It took a while to realize that many of these people weren't friends in any real sense, anyway. And even the ones that truly were friends, we still didn't do things as I discovered others do. For example, the entire time I lived in that town, I had people over to dinner exactly 5 times. People didn't do that. If you had dinner, we would have a potluck at the club and that would be our dinner party. You could smoke there while some people don't have smoking in their homes and - yay - a full bar. And you know what they say, Penny. You might be able to do that for a little while, but eventually you'd pick up again, and I think that is true because that is what always happened. As I said, I had put down the drink before. Staying stopped was my problem. So, I moved, joined AA and live an abstinent life with an equally abstinent husband. I doubt I would have ever gotten married if I hadn't.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Sure. I don't hang out in bars or around drinking either. It just sounds to me like you depended more on changing your lifestyle patters than you did on God. But remember that self-knowlege is insufficient if you want to work a strong AA program.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

I don't think that you give yourself enough credit, Clara. It seems that you worked very hard to change your behavior and build a better life. Yet you give the credit to AA. I bet you could've used any program or no program at all and the result would be the same for you. You wanted change so you changed.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

Clara's picture

And this could be true, too, Gigi. I've said as much early on when I got here. I didn't check anything else out because AA seemed ideal to me for what I wanted. And I guess that is also why I find that people hung out in AA despite feeling that it isn't for them because I know I wouldn't have done that. Penny said something about God in an earlier post, too. I didn't rely on Him much at first although I had always had God in my lilfe, but the more involved I got with my sobriety, a prayer life mattered to me more. It certainly has helped in losing my dog and having a great amount of change in the past 6 months.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

This thread leaves me speechless - absolutely speechless. Let me tell you how speechless it leaves me.

This is unforgivable, an outrage. How dare you approach steptardism with such things as logic and reason. This kind of thing has gone on long enough. It is time to call a halt.

And to add to your considerable crimes, you commit the ultimate sin - how DARE you apply common sense to these proceedings? It is just totally underhand and below the belt. Attacking, yes attacking is not too strong a word, attacking stepism with intelligent discussion is the last resort of a mountebank. Hanging is just too good for you.

Angry of Eastbourne

Is it still April 1st...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

I think you should write to the Queen about it! In the strongest terms.

btnben's picture

Just checked the old Kenny Everett clips - it's Mayfair, not Eastbourne. I claim senility...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

becket's picture

"Let me tell you how speechless it leaves me."

Priceless.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

But do you think you necessarily needed to go to AA meetings in order for you to apologise to people you felt you should apologise to?

I'm glad you don't buy into the 12 step belief that alcoholism is down to moral and spiritual defects or disobedience to spiritual principles. I hope you reassure newcomers to your AA meetings of this, even if it does go against what the big book says.

Clara's picture

Oh no. I think every person on the planet would bode well to show some maturity and recognize and correct some of life's wrongs. But it took a bit for me to see some wrongs and to see that apologies and were owed. I always knew right from wrong, but I got to the point where I am not altogether sure that I CARED all that much. Interesting that you bring up spiritual disaobedience because to some extent, I think that is what happened. I certainly went against whatever spirituality I had at one time.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

. . .because of this quote from Wilson, which apparently explains why people drink too much:

"His drunkenness and dissolution are not penalties inflicted by people in authority; they result from his personal disobedience to spiritual principles"
Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, page 174.

Could you explain exactly what these "spiritual pinciples" are, and how disobedience to them results in a person drinking too much?

btnben's picture

Not only does she not answer questions about principles, she can't spell it either...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

I am a very poor speller, and I don't care much about that! There are priciples with each step.

But you know what, HS, I don't parse the program. I used the steps in AA to clean up a very long time of drinking, and it helped me. I took suggestions, made changes, got life in order, and I like it. I didn't dissect the program, which is a reason this board has been good for me. I never knew that a group wasn't remiss if it didn't send money to Intergroups or even to the higher ups in NY until I got here and had a reason to check it out. People like to get on the board and literally argue a WORD to death, and I don't care to do that. I think there are things in the steps that you'd find in any self-help book out there, and that there are just universal truths in them and in the BB and some of Bill's other writings. I would argue that he orginated them... I think Bill at best was a good compiler. I never viewed AA as a religion, as asked by Avo, but I certainly have seen the steps or variations of them in any number of religions around the world. I do view it as spiritual and it has a religious basis.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

As for the "good" and the "bad", my experience is that people go back to how they were before drink took hold. Assholes go back to being assholes and decent people revert to how they were. The steps don't make a blind bit of difference. What's that old saying that I think applies here? "You can't polish a turd"...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

I think people can change and become better than they were.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

to think what you like. I'm just saying what I've actually seen many, many times.

The steps don't change people and leopards don't change their spots. The conclusion is obvious.

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Pennywise's picture

Speaking only for myself, I am going to grant that some people can change for the better when they try working the Steps. I just don't think that change comes about in the way the Steps are designed to work.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

I agree that people can and do change, but can also change for worse as well as for better. However, the only "change" an alcoholic needs to make in the context we are talking about is not a change in character but a change in behaviour - i.e., they stop drinking. Any change they make over, above or around that is completely irrelevant and none of anyone else's business.

I also agree with Ben that doing the 12 steps never changed a person's basic character. How could it?

Clara's picture

I believe that change can also come simply by putting the drink down, but I think when people want to change things about themselves, they can. And until some behaviors are pointed out to someone, how can they address them? I mean, this is just how you are accustomed to being. When we went to the speaker meeting last night, the guy said three times that he just didn't know he was the way he was when he was in it - the booze, the coke, and the pot...

If there isn't a recovered person on this board that can say "I used to be..." then I feel badly for them. And there are some that I feel were bullies then and are bullies now, but not because they have to be that way. They choose to be that way.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

I don't know. I could be wrong, but I have a hard time believing such people were as oblivious about their behaviors as they say they were.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

causeandeffect's picture

I agree Pennywise. It seems to me that it's just towing the party line to say that they were unaware of their behavior. I have a hard time believing that, unless they were raised by complete barbarians and never taught right from wrong. But even then, society would have some normative effect. I also have difficulty believing they would be clueless regarding making amends to those they've harmed. This is just common human decency and they way relationships are maintained. If you harm someone, you apologize or make it up to them in other ways. You don't have to have any program to tell you to behave with a little integrity.

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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Pennywise's picture

Yep. AA takes certain behaviors and categorizes them as alcoholic behaviors. In reality it is all human behavior. The whole dichotomy between alcoholics and normies is flawed.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

But some people do, Cause. Some peope lose all integrity and moral compass with booze or drugs. We can use my beloved friend Monica as an example. If not for crack, she wouldn't have been involved with the people she was, dating the guy that she was, getting into all the trouble she did, blowing the dealer for score or any number of other things. Her own mother called me to tell me how sad she was to see her daughter so far from how she was raised and all the opportunity she had been given.

Making amends is tricky. As you say, you apologize or make it up to them in other ways. But some of these people have gone down paths that make remembering that difficult, if they ever knew that to begin with... And there are some that truly forgot that they had been loved, worried over, wondered, prayed for... I remember watching a Law & Order episode and the storyline was about a man that was stalking a women online. He sounds alot like JR, but I guess he was a prisoner that did mail orders, which is how he knew about this woman, where she lived, what she bought, which is how he could make her think he was actually watching her. Then, he gets out and goes to find her... and of course kills her.

I remember crying that her poor mother was going to get this call from Briscoe that her daughter was dead. My sister fired on me, asking me if it ever occured to me that my own parents had been worried that THEY would get a call like that when I lived in DC because I behaved so recklessly. I was really taken aback. When Chandra Levy was finally found, my father told me he was so surprised that I hadn't ended up the same way. Cause, I had no idea they even knew what I did because they lived half a country away.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

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