Advice for the Wives.

Advice for the wives, quoted from the chapter: To The Wives, found in the Alcoholics Anonymous Text/Big Book.

It's a wonder how this still gets printed as an inspirational self-help book for anyone with the excessive chauvinistic "suggestions" that it contains. I'm amazed that any woman can read this chapter and consider it has having any value other then good fuel for a bomb fire. Furthermore, how can any editor read this and consider it appropriate as an instructional piece?

“Don't condemn your alcoholic husband no matter what he says or does”

“The first principle of success is that you should never be angry”.

“Be sure you are not critical during such a discussion”.

“Attempt instead, to put yourself in his place”.

“Cooperate, rather than complain, you will find that his excess enthusiasm will tone down.”

“You must not crowd him. Let him decide for himself”.

“But you must be on guard not to embarrass or harm your husband”

“We wives found that, like everybody else, we were afflicted with pride, self-pity, vanity, and all the things which go to make up the self-centered person; and we were not above selfishness or dishonesty”.

“Be careful not to disagree in a resentful or critical spirit”.

“Even your hatred must go. The slightest sign of fear or intolerance will lessen your husband's chance of recovery”.

“Make him feel absolutely free to come and go as he likes”.

Comments

Clara's picture

Our group didn't study To The Wives or To The Employers by group conscience. Those are particularly antiquated., but it was different in 1935. Interestingly enough, for Lois, she never would have divorced Bill. I couldn't have gotten away from that quickly enough.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

avogadno's picture

I ignored To The Agnostics and For The Wives the entire time, lol. Besides a glance, I didn't think either would apply to me so I didn't bother. I had no idea it contained such rubbish until later.

Why not just pitch that too? They don't seem to have qualms about changing to the stories around that are found in the back of the book.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

live_free_or_die's picture

The whole damn book is antiquated.

See MArrrietta's post below. Makes the point quite well.

And be sure to vote, as the MAre says. But she doesn't say which party.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

becket's picture

I did not say the whole book is antiquated. I said "To Wives" was a reflection of the times. "Of course we can all see how anachronistic and unaware these views are as represented in the Big Book" refers specifically to "For Wives", but I am in no way claiming that the entire text of "Alcoholic Anonymous" is antiquated.

Yes, I recommend voting. I would not presume to tell you how to cast your vote; however, if women's servitude appeals to you, the choice is clear.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

I understand that you were talking specifically about "To Wives" becket. I am the one that said the entire Big Book is antiquated. How can the BB not be, it was put together by a bunch of white, male drunks in the 1930's right? And it hasn't been changed, right?

On to "politics". Bill W was a "male pig". 20/20 hindsight bears that out. We know quite a bit about the "esteemed" Bill W. due to hindsight, don't we? At a minimum he was a scumbag womanizer.

For the record, I do not believe in women's servitude, I believe in a woman's choice on abortion, and I believe in capital punishment.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

becket's picture

You're talking about the 1930s. Don't try to pretend that nearly 80 years have not passed since this hit the fan. Life for women in the United States was exactly this kind of awful up until feminism kicked in again. Consider this, from "Women Must Play The Game As Men Do", written in 1928 by Eleanor Roosevelt: "Beneath the veneer of courtesy and outward show of consideration universally accorded women, there is a widespread male hostility--age-old, perhaps--against sharing with them any actual control." And this "advice" given by a counselor at the American Institute of Family Relations, who told a woman whose husband had an affair after 27 years of marriage, in the 1950s): "We have found in our experience, that when a husband leaves his home, he may be seeking refuge from an unpleasant environment. Could it be that your husband feels that he is not understood or appreciated in his own home? What might there be in your relations to him that could make him feel that way? Could you have stressed your contribution to your marriage in such a manner as to have belittled the part he has played and thus made him uncomfortable in his presence?" The job of the Little Woman was not to live or educate herself or to be active in her community; it was to wait on her husband and make sure he didn't get injured by some slight or unkindness. This was the entire society-sanctioned focus for women over the decades, until feminism turned it all inside out: a woman's role was generally to make a happy marriage and "steer it away from divorce".

Of course we can all see how anachronistic and unaware these views are as represented in the Big Book. That is how society was in the 30s, 40s and 50s. It would have been interesting to see what the tone of the Big Book would have been had it been written ten years before, during the freewheeling flapper era and before the stock market crash. I doubt it would have been, or could have been, so stodgy. But as it was, Bill Wilson was a product of his times. And all we have with which to view him now is 20/20 hindsight.

Women have made tremendous strides, and we're now watching them being rescinded one by one, or being targeted for dismantling by members of the Republican party. Women are once again being pushed to the back of the bus. I find the suggestions above typical for their time, but their time is long past. If you want to be taken seriously, if you want to keep your hand on the wheel of your own life, register and VOTE.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

avogadno's picture

No kidding, I'm quite aware that it's 70 years old. And It still gets printed today, and it's content is still recommended as a viable source to recovery.

Here's a recent and brief summary of the book from Amazon:
"Alcoholics Anonymous-The Big Book. It's more than a book. It's a way of life, and has served as a lifeline to millions worldwide".

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

live_free_or_die's picture

Was Bill W a republican back then?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

Pennywise's picture

I believe he was.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket's picture

Dig this!

"Divorcees Anonymous
Divorcees Anonymous (DA) was an organization that helped women avoid divorce, Celello writes. Interestingly enough, it was started by an attorney named Samuel M. Starr. Again, it was all about what the woman could do to save the marriage.

One woman sought help from the DA when she found out her husband was cheating. Apparently, according to Starr, the problem was that the woman looked decades older, wore dowdy clothes and had stringy hair. The women in the organization took her to the beauty salon and sewed her new clothes. They also worked with her daily on “her mind and her heart as well as her appearance.” When she was deemed improved, the DA set up a date with her and her husband. After that, the story goes that the husband stopped seeing his mistress and came home." (A Glimpse Into Marriage Advice from the 1950s - World of Psychology)

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

avogadno's picture

I love it! No wonder he left her, she looked decades older and needed a makeover.

I wonder how much divorce has increased since the 1950's.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

massive's picture

Burn these pages !!!

Massive

becket's picture

Which pages?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

All of 'em.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

JR Harris's picture

How else could he get away with the things he did?

"“Don't condemn your alcoholic husband no matter what he says or does” Big Book p.108, "To Wives"

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

“To Wives” is the biggest pile of sexist drivel I have ever read (and that’s saying something). There’s a caveat, these days, that it could apply equally if the sexes were reversed. Really? Would any self-respecting man really take this seriously if it was in reference to himself; if he was the long-suffering spouse and his wife was the alcoholic? She should be perfectly free to neglect him and their children and spend all her time going out doing ‘spiritual work’? He should put up with her just ‘coming and going as she likes’, leave him to look after the home and family, never get angry or complain and be all-understanding? He should put up with her sitting around all day drinking coffee and smoking – but that’s OK and he shouldn’t say anything because she’s ‘sober’? He should tiptoe around on egg-shells, terrified that if he shows any kind of natural human emotion she will drink again? He should look deep into himself and see that because his wife is an alcoholic he should recognize himself as being ‘afflicted with pride, self-pity, vanity, and all the things which go to make up the self-centered person’? Don’t think so. Only a man could have written that, and – amazingly! – it was a man who wrote it!

OK, this was written in the late 1930s and its attitudes are antiquated, but this goes for the rest of the ‘big book’ too. So why are people required to read this rubbish now? What has this – or anything else in the ‘big book’ for that matter – have to do with any individual stopping drinking?

I’m not sure about the US, but in the UK and much of Europe the 1920s and 1930s were an era in which women made huge social and political progress and were in some ways more ‘feminist’ than we are now. Some of this was down to necessity – the First World War killed off a whole generation of young men, and the option of getting married, having children and being financially supported by a husband was simply not there for many. It wasn’t really until the late 1940s and 1950s, in the aftermath of the Second World War, that women were thrown out of their jobs and there was a huge movement to get them back to the home as housewives, major consumers of household goods, and generally subservient to men again. (And it only took about another 10-15 years for the next generation to rebel against all that crap because they really didn’t want it.)

There is no excuse for Wilson for this particularly self-serving piece of writing. In many ways the US led the world in fighting for equal rights for women, and this had been going on for many decades by the time he wrote the ‘big book’. Also anyone who really believed, even in the 1930s, that only men could get addicted to alcohol and only men's needs in this area should be addressed must have been a complete imbecile.

Maybe this wouldn’t matter, but this is this chapter that provides the foundation for the nonsense that is still spouted today in Al-anon. How many of those people are aware that it was actually written by a man, and merely contained his own personal opinions about how a ‘good’ wife married to a philanderer like himself should behave?

becket's picture

Rubbish or not, no one is "required" to read the Big Book. My guess is that most people who attend AA or AlAnon are not particularly interested in the fact that a man wrote "To Wives" or the Big Book. They are likely just looking for some relief from living with or dealing with an alcoholic.

The First Wave of Feminism rose up in the nineteenth and the early twentieth centuries, but women's struggle then was not about the glass ceiling or equal pay. We could not vote or own property; these were actual legislated inequalities. The fight was not split down party lines and it did not focus on contraception, abortion or reproductive rights. In those times, marital rape was not recognized as a crime, legally or morally. Second Wave Feminism got rolling as early as 1953 with the publication of Simone de Beauvoir's "The Second Sex". The translation from French to English was incomplete, with sections of the text excised.

So what happened to women between the First Wave and the Second Wave? They became silent. It wasn't until the uprising of the Second Wave in the 1950s that women began to wonder about their value and their role in marriage, community, society, about opportunites that were being denied them, about being able to control their own reproductive systems. ""The problem lay buried, unspoken, for many years in the minds of American women," wrote Betty Friedan in "The Feminine Mystique." "It was a strange stirring, a sense of dissatisfaction, a yearning [that is, a longing] that women suffered in the middle of the 20th century in the United States. Each suburban wife struggled with it alone. As she made the beds, shopped for groceries … she was afraid to ask even of herself the silent question — 'Is this all?'"

Lois Wilson was 48 years old when the Big Book was published. She lived in a world where the furor of the first Wave was over and the promise of the Second Wave was yet to come. Women in that era in the United States were for the most part docile, deferential support players in their relationships. This was not primarily because they had no self-esteem. The esteem they enjoyed came mostly from tending to their husbands and children. Of course there were women who were not married and not living under that sort of tyranny, but there were other factors within their lives that kept them wrapped tightly and not asking for too much. The Second Wave was not to come along for nearly another 15 years, and until that time most women knuckled under as domestic engineers and role models.

"OK, this was written in the late 1930s and its attitudes are antiquated," you say. Yes, it appears antiquated by today's standards. But in the mid 30s it was business as usual and didn't appear "sexist" because that concept was not in society's vocabulary. When you put the writing and publication of the Big Book within context, it is not out of the ordinary. It may seem chauvinistic today, but the time had not yet come again for women to rally around the many causes that characterized the Second Wave. If the Big Book is troublesome because you cannot read it as a history book as well as a how-to manual, and you want to regard Bill Wilson as a pig, I have a feeling nothing is going to stop you.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise's picture

I do read it as a how to manual, as in, how to use this book to manipulate people. That applies not just to the "To Wives" chapter.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket's picture

OK.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Clara's picture

But Lois also was jut Lois. Regardless of what Bill did or how he behaved, she never would have divorced him. For her, it simply wasn't an option. My husband chose to view To The Wives as a primer on how to deal with a sponsee.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

From what I've seen, most sponsors do instruct their sponcees read the BB. When I went to inpatient detox, the only two books that we were allowed to read were the big book and the Bible. Of course anyone can refuse to read the BB. There's no fine or punishment, no demerits or failing grades. But I think most follow directions because, as you said, they are just looking for some relief. So maybe it's not required reading; but it is certainly strongly encouraged. I wonder how many AA's tell the newcomers to read it as a history book and how many tell them to look at it as a guide to living.

I think it's time for a complete rewrite.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

Pennywise's picture

Of course. Anyone who goes to AA is told to read the Big Book, work the Steps, get a sponsor, and go to meetings.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

justme's picture

Bigtime disgusting sexist drivel. Have you ever seen the sexist ads from the 50s? I should post a link. Incredible how sexist society was and relatively speaking, that wasn't too long ago, either.

Hate to say it, but society is still sexist. The GOP in the US hope to take women back 100 years. sigh. Sad sad sad.

becket's picture

I watched my mother kowtow to my bully father for decades. All the women in the neighborhood were in the same boat, unfulfilled and angry that their voices counted for nothing. Even once feminism caught hold again, my mother was too entrenched with children and a mortgage, not working herself, and she couldn't get out. Call it sexist, but I lived through it and it wasn't just that the men were pigs. Most of the women had to believe them. Most of the women were without identities and afraid to search within themselves to see how they really felt and what they really thought. It takes two to make a system like this work.

How would any one of you written it better in, say, 1937? No, you don't get to use today's "equality standards" (and that, people, is a joke). You don't get to reap the benefit of having been raised by or surrounded by enlightened men or forceful, tenacious women. Using only what society knew in 1937, how would you rewrite "To Lois"?

Keep your toxic jokes to yourselves. If you're all about anti-sexism, this is not the time to drop the ball - bring on your creative skills and re-write "To Lois" page by page, in a 1937 timewarp, so it doesn't offend.

Good luck.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Clara's picture

I tend to think there would be no Alanon. While many of the people I know in Alanon are there for their alcoholic children, I don't think people stay with partners that want to stay drunk. And men leave alcohoic women far more quickly than women leave men... but they CAN leave marriages today when it reallly wasn't that common in the 30's.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

I totally agree with this Becket. We can't use today's standards to judge what was written in 1937. But what was written in 1937 (the BB in this case) is irrelevant today. Let's go ahead and classify the BB as a history book. Or better yet, a work of historical fiction, and put something better in it's place.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

justme's picture

To call sexism sexism is a good thing! Of course, times have changed. Thank GOD and all She's done for us! *smile* ... Nope, no way could I rewrite that nonsense in a creative way.

It's troublesome that the AA documents haven't been updated since 1937. Or have they? I mean, this crap is still in the "book"?

I didn't make any toxic jokes, btw..so don't know what you're referring to in reply to me. (Still having a hard time figuring out the navigation of who's replying to who on this software so perhaps you weren't replying to me? Just looked like it.. but what do I know?)

Oh yeah, and I lived through it, too. Luckily I had a strong mother and a father who respected her. I was very lucky. AND as one of 4 girls growing up back in the day, I was also extremely lucky that my Dad respected ALL women and taught all of us, "You can do and be whatever you want to do and be!". He was really very special.

Later in my life, though, I had some relationships where men treated me like a second class citizen. I'd go into details, but I'll spare you. Also, even now, in the 21st century, women can't break that glass ceiling. Not many of us, anyway. Dollar to dollar, we make only 60-70% of the salary of a male doing the exact same jobs!

"We've come a long way, baby", but there's still a LONG long way to go!

This remains "a man's world" to a great degree. It's good to see women finally being recognized but still, sexism remains alive and well. (I actually sort of wish I hadn't revealed the fact that I'm a woman on this site last night. It was sorta cool when people didn't know by my screen name.) Just rambling again. Pardon me. Thanks for listening. ;)

becket's picture

I didn't challenge anyone to rewrite nonsense. The challenge is to update the chapter "To Wives" so that it is currently helpful to spouses/significant others.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

justme's picture

I see. Probably a good updated title would be "To Spouses or Partners" and totally leave the sex out of it so it would be directed to either sex.

I don't know what I'd advise to partners of people who drink too much. Judgmental arguments and confrontations aren't a good idea, that's for sure, or stating ultimatums (that kind of thing). All those things do is piss the other person off. I can't think of anything else. I'd be interested in reading what others may come up with.

I don't agree that all women from that era were as weak & submissive as Lois. Times change, people do not. There were just as many strong women back then as there are now. Also just as many decent men back then as there are now & so on. No, Wilson treated Lois abusively, just because it was the 1930's it does not mean that all women allowed men to treat them abusively. A lot of women had a say in their homes, life's & with their husbands. There may not have been equal rights out in the world, employment, etc. but there were plenty of strong women & plenty of decent men. Wilson was just a dirt ball, he treated every & any one he could get away with like shit. Other men were not like Wilson, they were not narcissist's, they were decent, kind, devoted to wife & children. You can't compare the way Wilson treated Lois & what she tolerated as the norm for society back then. Women were not voiceless with their husbands, Lois was voiceless. My Grandmothers lived back then, they were strong, their own person & they had a influence over their husbands due to love & respect. Wilson didn't love or respect anyone but himself.

patti

"Then the miracle happened - to me!... The walls crumpled - and the light streamed in. I wasn't trapped. I wasn't helpless. I was free, and I didn't have to drink to 'show them'. This wasn't 'religion' - this was freedom! Freedom from anger and fear, freedom to know happiness, and freedom to know love."
p. 206

go figure

Pennywise's picture

But was she really free? Indeed, she felt constrained to keep her lesbianism hidden for fear that it would damage the reputation of the AA movement:

http://silkworth.net/aabiography/margaretmann.html

To protect the work she was doing during a period of heavy anti-gay bias, Marty never revealed her lesbianism except to Bill (her sponsor) and other close friends.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

I seem to remember from the bio of her published in 2005 that Marty Mann didn't come out for a very long time after she got sober. In fact, her own family wasn't sure of it until she died, although it was certainly known in the fellowship due to her reationship with Priscilla, but that may have been further down the timeline. I don't see why anyone would have thought it would have been someone's business. Back then, people tended to keep that sort of thing private.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

becket's picture

She may have felt a tremendous burden had been lifted, and maybe her freedom declaration referred only to that.

I'm not really and totally free in every facet of my life, and if anyone here says they are, I think it's fair to assume they're lying, or at the very least exaggerating and tempering it with hope.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise's picture

I'm not really and totally free in every facet of my life, and if anyone here says they are, I think it's fair to assume they're lying, or at the very least exaggerating and tempering it with hope.

Bingo, spot on, correct. The same totally applies to me. So doesn't it make sense to assume that the people who wrote the stories in the Big Book are likewise lying or exaggerating? Don't you think it is kind of immoral to publish those lies and exaggerations as a means of recruiting fresh prospects when it is pretty much guaranteed that the prospects will never experience the type of freedom that was promised? Are those extravagant promises, I think so!

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Gee, my hopes are dashed. If P-man ain't a straight-shooter, who is? He's probably subliminally selling ED meds ...

Pennywise's picture

I am a straight-shooter, but we all have our fears and insecurities.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Me: terrified of my insecurities and quivering from my fears.

I wonder, but not enough to research, what the Hughes act entails. It would seem "Marty M.", however tentative and indirect, was a force for the rights of women, homosexuals, and alcoholics. It also seems "Bill W." was neither a homophobe nor a misogynist, otherwise there might have been a chapter titled "Lez Bitches Made Him a Sot".

"Woman Suffer Too" was one of the personal stories I could sympathize with because the character seemed like me. And I thought maybe then the 'miracle' could happen to me too. What a let down: the 'miracle' isn't different than it was for pitiful deadheads - a ticket inside, an inside ticket. Right?

Pennywise's picture

I don't know much about miracles, my friend, but there is one thing they say in meetings that I agree with -- just keep doing the next right thing. Take some pride in it if you can. Life, to me, ain't about money, power, prestige, or any other type of one-upsmanship. It's about how you treat people and the principles you live by. That is everything.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Trisha K.'s picture

You have always treated members here with respect.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

Pennywise's picture

Everyone here is worthy of respect. I'll debate points to the moon and back, but at the end of the day, what really matters is that we aren't going nuts as we go through life. I really hated that feeling.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

At this stage those sorts of things (clarity, confidence, competence, comfort, companionship - countless 'c's encompassing compassion) would represent a miracle for me. I have grave doubts about miracles though. In fact 'grave doubt', along with 'chronic half-assedness', specifies my outstanding 'character defect'. On the other hand, I'm generous about others' sincerity and validity of the beliefs concerning experiences in their lives. It's been said miracles don't happen like they used, that miracles are rare and wonderful things, that fulfillment by miracle require a certain receptivity; do not know. I do read fiction. Two examples, one prosaic and one exotic, for no good reason:

Raymond Carver and Alcoholics Anonymous: The Narrative Under the ‘Surface of Things’
http://www.uhu.es/hum676/revista/wriglesworth.pdf

Philip K. Dick: The Other Side
http://www.gnosis.org/pkd.biography.html

Excerpt from "VALIS":

"Then the true name for religion", Fat said, "is death."

"The secret name," I agreed. "You got it. Jesus died; Asklepios died -- they killed Mani worse than they killed Jesus, but nobody cares; nobody even remembers. They killed the Catharists in southern France by the tens of thousands. In the Thirty Years War, hundreds of thousands of people died, Protestants and Catholics -- mutual slaughter. Death is the real name for it; not God, not the Savior, not love -- DEATH. Kevin is right about his cat. It's all there in his dead cat. The Great Judge can't answer Kevin: 'Why did my cat die?' Answer: "Damned if I know.' There is no answer; there is only a dead animal that wanted to cross the street. We are all animals that want to cross the street only something mows us down half-way across that we never saw. Go ask Kevin. 'Your cat was stupid.' Who made the cat? Why did he make the cat stupid? Did the cat learn by being killed, and if so, what did he learn? Did Sherri learn anything from dying of cancer? Did Gloria learn anything --"

"Okay, enough," Fat said.

"Kevin is right," I said. "Go out and get laid."

"By who? They're all dead."

I said, "There're more. Still alive. Lay one of them before she dies or you die or somebody dies, some person or animal. You said it yourself: the universe is irrational because the mind behind it is irrational. You are irrational and you know it. I am. We all are and we know it, on some level. I'd write a book about it but no one would believe ..."

becket's picture

First of all, you don't know what's a lie and what's not in the stories. They were personal accounts that were collected and published and were meant to instill hope. So what if they were lying or exaggerating? You are lied to and deceived every single day, by politicians, by lovers, by children, by the guy at the farmer's market. No one is 100% honest every day. Are you as offended by Aesop's Fables or the Jain Puranas?

I don't buy into all that "recruiting" bullshit, and I'm sorry that you do. If someone goes to a SMART meeting or a Baptist Church it doesn't persuade me that I've been wrong all along - there's no threat there and there's no subtle seduction either. I went into AA in the 1980s of my own free will because I could no longer work and drink. It didn't interest me then, and it doesn't now, how anyone else got there.

You don't know what new members of AA will experience - you have no way of predicting where they will go behind the force of the program. If you think the promises in the Big Book are extravagant, then I must try to accept your opinion at face value. OK, fine. I don't have to agree with you. I have been gone from AA for so long that I don't remember the Promises unless I look them up in my Big Book, which is in storage. Oh, I could find it online, but there's never an opportunity where I'm required to measure myself against what was promised. You know, my husband promised to love, honor and cherish. He was gone after eight years. It doesn't kill my hopes for my future.

I've come to a place where everything is a myth with a message. I don't want to spend a lot of time arguing about truth, because no one knows what the truth is. Everything we find here is conjecture. So when the hate falls to the bottom, maybe we can learn from one another. None of us can claim we "know the truth."

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise's picture

I agree with a lot of that, Becket. Now perhaps you did not see this in AA, but I have heard quite a few people ask what is wrong with them when The Promises aren't coming true. Instilling hope is good, but I think instilling false hope can be devastating, at least in many cases. You seem to have it mostly all together. You are in a good place when it comes to not killing yourself with liquor. However, not everyone is as insightful as you.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket's picture

When does hope become false hope? When it is offered or when it fails to pan out? I don't think anyone is offering false hope. The caveat in the Promises appears here: "They are being fulfilled among us - sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly." When slowly becomes never, a different solution should be sought. But how many people leave prematurely because they chafe under the suggested footwork? How many leave because God does not exist? How many are there because the courts said they have to be? There are lots of recipes for failure. Some are of our own making. Others arise because we just don't want to be bothered with all that stuff. AA is not a program for everyone, but it is a program that does help some people achieve and maintain sobriety. Nobody gets to judge that. Nobody gets to say they're zombies or morons because they "think" they're sober in AA. If they're not drinking, they're sober. If you're not drinking, you're sober, and that's after a divorce from AA. I'm sober due to my participation in AA.

The worst strikes against AA today are not sexism and false hope found in the Big Book, nor Bill Wilson's girlfriend, nor Stepping Stones and their tax status. The worst strikes are the blatantly rogue interpretations of the program, including made up slogans, "quit taking your medications", 90 in 90, etc.; the commercialization of the program, the false impression that AA can help everybody who tries it. I don't believe that and I understand that money is behind it. I don't begrudge anyone choosing some other program to follow. I don't begrudge anyone wishing to follow no program and get sober on his own, his way.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise's picture

I accept this. Good post.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

I still do not get the med thing. I mean, the policy of AA is pretty straight on, both in Living Sober and the pamphlet on Sponsorship. Anything else is simply the opinion of an individual. I didn't do the 90/90 but I really came to enjoy the meetings and the wonderful people I met there that has used the program to reclaim their lives. In my group at the club, there had been some people whose drinking took them under bridges. One woman even attempted to light her husband on fire during a black out... But these were years in the past and they'd gone on to good lives they never thought would happen to them. As a balance, I took meetings to a men's hafway halfhouse and worked with people who were at the start of their path. Now that I have moved away from a neat recovery community, I find that I miss it a great deal. Even from a distance, they've continued to be loving a supportive during a hard time for me. I can't think of one other time in my life where I had that kind of support.

I don't care how people find their path to sobriety. I just care that they do, and if the princibles set forth in the BB did it for me, goodie for me!

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

not go "tangential".

Are you trying to say it's not ok to lie and cheat in order to ramrod legislation through congress? This is capitalist America. Maybe you'd be more comfortable in Soviet Union, comrade.

Clara's picture

How about that I felt a great deal of personal freedom from the issues that caused me the most pain? Everything else was rather manageable after that...

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

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