Choice

Clara's picture
Submitted by Clara on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 15:38

Staying sober can boil down to just such a choice, we have learned. We can spend hours thinking of reasons that we want or need or intend to take a drink. Or we can spend the time listing reasons that drinking is not good for us and abstaining is more healthful, and listing things we can do intead of drinking.

Comments

Pogue Mahone

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 18:39

I thought Clara was Marietta..I have troll confusion.

Amour013

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 19:00

I thought Clara was Marietta..I have troll confusion

We could ALL be just answering ourselves any more for all we know in this fucking place!

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 19:15

?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

Amour013

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 19:58

I would NEVER reveal my true identity here...... But I will confirm this..... I signed on to the OP many, many years ago..... and I signed on to this forum as soon as it opened (hoping for some rational discussions). I've only had ONE, and have used only ONE moniker. I don't play the stupid fucking games that some of the assholes here do..... if you haven't figured that out yet..... well then.... I'm sorry.

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 20:03

So you've only had one rational discussion here? Is that what you said?

Well, we should work on that. Are you Pro or Nay AA?

I accept your apology.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

billybudd

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 20:18

his one (1) rational discussion with this flippancy.

Be Serious. Demons: is it preferable to chase them out with kisses, cuddles, and bells, or to lure them out with smokes, liquor, and porn?

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 20:31

If it is a demoness, I would start with liquor, then bells, then cuddles, then kisses and then turn on the camera, then.............

You were asking how to lure a demoness, right?

As I said, good luck!

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 21:29

This "demoness" sure does have those child-bearing hips. That takes her squarely out of the temptress and right into the madonna. How unsexy.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 22:00

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 22:27

I think she's a vast improvement over the other one!

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Amour013

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 21:47

So you've only had one rational discussion here? Is that what you said?

Nope.... that's what you said dipwad. If you look closely.... you'll see I ended the one sentence with a period..... and then I started another.
And I wasn't apologizing to you for anything..... I only do that when I'm absolutely wrong. In this case.... I wasn't.
In case you haven't figured it out..... I am totally anti-AA. You seem to have as much of a problem with figuring the obvious shit out as many of the other dumbfucks here.

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 22:08

Hostile. Just like a 15-year-old. Little substance. Just profanity.

Unimpressive.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 21:27

No "stupid fucking games", huh? I've read a few of your posts that would strip varnish off a forty-foot boat.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 21:43

Are you off your head meds, or did you get the mix wrong?

I remember when I was racing motocross. We had to get the fuel/oil mixture just right or I wouldn't win the race.

becket, you are not winning the race.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 22:07

If you are racing, dear heart, you are the winner and the loser, because no one else here seems to be sprinting toward any finish line.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 22:11

I'm glad you brought that up.

Is my heart in my soul, or is my soul in my heart, how would you "paint" that?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 22:36

I would paint that in a hue somewhere between midnight blue and black, if I were literally painting. If the painting were metaphorical in nature, as it was in my earlier post, I would say you are trying to give the impression of a tough guy but you are coming off as a sort of lukewarm, well, boy who wants to be included but, in view of the depth of discussions that are emerging, is maybe in over his head a little.

Just an impression. It's not written in the first 164 pages so you don't really have to concern yourself with it.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Amour013

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 21:57

I've read a few of your posts

You've "supposedly" only been here for a little over 3 weeks "becket".
I haven't posted here in quite some time until recently. So unless you've been here for awhile as another poster who got booted, or you went back and reviewed my previous postings. Then, you would see that my "varnish stripping" posts were directed at a select few - that being YOU Marietta and your panty sniffing sidekick Billbuttfucker.

becket's picture

becket

Fri, 03/23/2012 - 11:52

Are you suggesting that it is impossible to read posts without posting? Of course I went back and reviewed many previous postings. What do you think?

I don't know billybudd but I think he shines light on a very dark landscape here and I appreciate his posts. Yours, not so much. I don't know Clara. I don't know Marietta. I don't know Trisha K. I am having trouble understanding why you allow your blood pressure to rise over what we say. Our observations and experiences are human in nature, just like yours; unfortunately for you, they don't support your black-heart approach to "sharing". Too bad. You could learn something from us.

Well, if you don't like it, tune it out. We certainly won't be offended.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

btnben's picture

btnben

Fri, 03/23/2012 - 04:19

that many words Amour, when you trip Marietta up on her lies...lol. Everyone knows who she is, but now that she's lied about it, her pride will not let her admit it. It must be driving her crazy, knowing that everyone knows she lies. Makes every subsequent post a joke...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 22:10

Or is it Elizabeth Cady Stanton or Susan B. Anthony?

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Fri, 03/23/2012 - 11:57

I am already tired of reading your stupid tough guy act. Please go pull some little girls hair, kick a dog or write some profanity on a bathroom wall. Whatever you choose just please do it somewhere else. The job your seeking is already taken by ben and DeCon.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

Amour013

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 21:40

Fuck off Marietta and your sidekick Billybuttkisser too...... or maybe that's another one of your make believe personas? What a fuckin' nut case you are......

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 22:30

"Fuck off Marietta and your sidekick Billybuttkisser too . . . "

This is not a picture of detente.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

btnben's picture

btnben

Fri, 03/23/2012 - 04:20

What a joke you are...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 03/23/2012 - 06:25

Well... I thought it had been a good topic. There might be able to be a decent discussion if people can keep personalities out of it.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

flannigan

Fri, 03/23/2012 - 11:30

It IS a good topic whether one is AA or not.

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Fri, 03/23/2012 - 12:19

It is a great topic regardless.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Fri, 03/23/2012 - 11:51

I agree it is a good topic. That is why I felt the need to point out that if you think you have a choice over whether to take the first drink, then you are disagreeing with the Big Book.

Clara, would you ever say something like "the Big Book was wrong on this. Bill Wilson was wrong. When it comes to power over whether to have the first drink, I disagree with Bill Wilson and the Big Book." Would you ever say something like that?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 03/23/2012 - 11:57

Bill described his experiences. He often drank without understanding how it even happened to him. No intent... Someone could walk by with a tray of drinks he would would instinctively pick one up and be off at the races again. I wasn't there; I can't dispute it.

I know about me and my remarks are generally confined to that.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

flannigan

Fri, 03/23/2012 - 12:04

Of course I disagree with Bill Wilson and the Big Book on this. If all alcoholics were powerless over the choice to take the first drink or not, none could ever achieve sobriety, including Bill W. Mr. Wilson stopped drinking years before AA and the steps even existed.

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Fri, 03/23/2012 - 12:17

Thanks flannigan!!

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

flannigan

Fri, 03/23/2012 - 12:19

One can not pick up a drink off a tray and then consume it without intent. That is not "instinct" by any definition. Minimalization, maybe; denial, probably; but a complex physical response (picking up drink off a tray, putting glass to one's mouth, swallowing liquid contained in glass) can hardly be classified as
"instinctive behavior". Wilson knew exactly what he was doing by consuming alcohol; how could he possibly have caused his hand to pick up the drink off the tray if he didn't will his hand to pick up the drink off the tray.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Fri, 03/23/2012 - 13:12

Thank you, Flannigan. I am in total agreement.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

justme's picture

justme

Sat, 03/24/2012 - 13:56

If I have a few drinks, I paint, I write. It relaxes me enough to release creativity. Seriously. But I know it's not healthy. And I want to get healthy. But I also want to paint and write because that's who I am, that's what I do. I'm a writer and a visual artist. So, it's a dilemma. When I don't have a drink, I feel stifled and the creative muse doesn't come as easily or at all. I'm not loose. I'm not open enough. Of course, many may tell me this is bogus and an excuse but it's really true that my output and creativity surges, flourishes, expounds on itself much more when i'm more relaxed with a couple of drinks. I'm concerned that if I stop drinking entirely, I may never write or paint again. It sucks. Art or health? What a choice. Art is my LIFE. But without being healthy, I don't have a life. It's a dichotomy. Thanks for listening.

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 03/24/2012 - 14:18

What comes in the middle, between art and health, is discipline. If you have creative powers they are not switched on and off by substances. It may be more of a challenge to tap into them without the facilitator, but that just means there are other things standing in the way - things like self-doubt, stifled imagination, the thought that you're repeating yourself, you get the idea. Flex the creative muscle. Discipline can show you how to alter your own mental and emotional state so that the muse gets to come out and play. A foray into physical health will naturally parlay into efforts to become more naturally spontaneous. Who knows? Alcohol may have been inhibiting you all the while, holding your art in a state of "really good" when it could have been "unbelievably great". All you need to do is experiment. It's free, it won't hurt you, and it's possible you can create art which is profound and captivating without your having to rely on a couple of drinks.

Please note: this is not a pitch for AA. This is a pitch for self-sustaining creativity. It can be considered artistic control.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

justme's picture

justme

Sat, 03/24/2012 - 16:26

Great reply.. lots to think about. I've never even considered AA, btw. Anyway, it's partially a habit, I'm sure. I've had many periods during my adult life when I didn't drink, but also found it correlated with not creating. It's hard for me to get into that "zone" where I'm in a state of pure creativity, almost half-submerged into a connection with LIFE itself. It's quite difficult to describe. But it's when I'm in that state when what I feel is my best work emerges, spills out, either in words (poetry is my usual vehicle) or visual art. Now, if I have too much too drink, that's not good... that destroys the power of the tool.

But there's a certain point where I'm just at the edge of being in between *thinking* and *feeling* and the THINKING really gets in the way. It's the feeling that works with art. Like Charlie Parker said (paraphrased), "You have to practice, practice, practice your instrument but when you get out there on the bandstand, you let go and wail!" Sorry, the quote isn't exactly accurate but it's close. So, yes, I DO study discipline as well. I mean, I WORK on my crafts, the tools of my arts, totally sober. But when I'm really ready to create, I find a few drinks to be an excellent tool to getting into that zone where I can wail! But maybe you're right. Maybe it's holding me back. I have a lot to think about. I really want to get in the very best shape of my life physically. Some artists use weed for the same purpose. I smoke a bit here and there, but I find I forget what I was about to write or what change I was about to make in the painting so that's not a tool that works well for me. I seriously don't think weed is unhealthy. I mean, I wish it didn't effect my short-term memory like that and I really wish it were legal. But that's another conversation.

I'm spoiled, I guess. The few drinks are a shortcut to a consciousness state I can't seem to get to without them. You've given me a lot to think about. Maybe you're right. Maybe if I could improve my discipline, my crafts would be even better and I'd be healthier at the same time.

Some people use meditation. I heard meditation and thought they said medication. Haha. :P

Thanks again for taking the time to talk to me. I stumbled on this site looking for people who used to drink but don't drink any more. But AA definitely is NOT for me. I never considered myself an "alcoholic" and I don't buy the religion crap.

It's not easy to find other artists/musicians/poets, etc., who don't indulge. Or maybe it's just my imagination.

Thanks for listening. I talk too much. I know.

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 03/24/2012 - 16:48

I don't think you talk too much, justme. You write well and I always enjoy reading thoughtful passages offered by people who don't want to fire off insults at me and then stand back and slap each other on the back for "another good one!"

If you don't have a dependence on alcohol, and you drink for relaxation or inspiration, I don't see a problem with that. It won't necessarily stand in the way of your finding other methods to bring your art to life, including the discipline we talked about. Just beware, though: a facilitator can eventually turn on you and then dependence becomes more important than painting or drawing or writing. And you could spend 10, 20, 30 years just trying to manage that problem, searching for hitting the optimal mark and finding you're increasingly shooting past it.

I've known and worked with drunk actors and sober actors. The sober actors take their craft seriously enough to strive for art, and some of them succeed brilliantly. The drunk actors are often, thirty years later, still drunk actors, embittered and blaming others because they never could catch a break.

Alcohol can be a barrier between you and your natural creativity. If someone admires a drawing of yours, one that you created under a slight influence of alcohol, and you are compelled to thank them, who is it that says "Thank you"? Is it you or is it alcohol? And though their compliment might be offered sincerely, will you somewhere in your deep interior not allow yourself to hear the full measure of their appreciation because you know your work was produced with a collaborator - alcohol? These are just things to consider, and I'm not coming down on you for loosening up with a glass or two of wine or whatever. Just watch for glass number 3 and glass number 4. If that comes up, your muse is on vacation.

Best wishes!

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

justme's picture

justme

Sat, 03/24/2012 - 17:54

It's the 3rd and 4th that get me to the "zone". hah! ... Do I have a problem? I don't think so but hey, if it's measured by numbers and those are the numbers that count, then maybe some people would think I do. *shrug* ...... Interesting story about the actors. Are you an actor? I love ALL the arts, including theater! Thanks for your thoughtful feedback, becket. Much appreciated. Tonight I'm going to paint. I have a brand new large canvas waiting for me. Maybe I'll paint glasses. 3 or 4 of them. Overlapping. LIstening to a good mix on Pandora. Blues, jazz, rock, classical, reggae, Beatles, more... I LOVE music, too. My tastes are very eclectic. Music is another vehicle I use to help with the creativity. I can't write, for instance, unless the music is instrumental. Lyrics get in the way. And I need music on to paint. Why do human beings come to depend on these types of crutches? I went to a painting workshop recently where we all painted in silence. I found it very difficult because I'm so used to painting with music. I'm rambling again. Nice to have someone to talk to. I'm pretty darn socially isolated. Thanks again.

billybudd

Sat, 03/24/2012 - 20:48

then it's not a problem. You'll certainly know when it becomes a problem, perhaps merely as a glimmer between blackouts, or a flash of insight between collapse and impact, or bright dazzling angels in the rear-view mirror, or the flapping gob of a beloved significant other but you can't quite make out the words though the message seems urgent and suggests some kind of ultimatum, or much worse and less ambiguous indicators. Other warnings signs: uninterrupted habit, morning pick-me-up, middle of the night put-me-down between bouts of ghastly sleeplessness, inexplicable bruises and/or gashes, mawkish sobbing, forsaking life and livelihood to take up residence on Big Rock Candy Mountain, etc.

An insidious aspect of using is the crutch-that-cripples effect, that one believes one can't perform as well or enjoy performing as much unless under the influence. You seem to hint at this. True excellence wants diligence (love, attentiveness, care); true diligence wants sobriety (steadiness, seriousness). Everyone's tolerance and temperament and tipping point is different, and you seem wonderful; don't worry until you worry.

I'm a drunken hearted man, my life seems so misery
I'm a poor drunken hearted man, my life seems so misery
And if I could only change my way of livin', it would mean so much to me

justme's picture

justme

Sat, 03/24/2012 - 22:02

and so she mirrored the resistance,
the distance intended, every image
being farther away than ever imagined,
the fashion of a dilettante wavered by
a foreign cry and mew,
you, the very hint of a performance
skewed by ambiguous indicators,
traitors on right, on left, up ahead,
the dead not yet dying, yet imprisoned
in a diligent grave!

oh, so save us from the
painting we've made, the impact
reflected off refractions of light,
the bending arm, insignificant,
the charm of a much worse or less
conclusion, the gavel of a decision
BANGED banged banged
on a judge's bench!

mirrored are the stenches
of garbage strewn from street to heart,
from each part of a mantra to another
start of a sigh, and I am just I and
you are just you, each true spirit
seeing through a mind's resemblance –

uninterrupted habits, resentments,
refreshed dawns, the longings of a
day carried on the way a day can carry
on a day, the way misery crashes into
mirrored ways so far away they seem
closer

egos bruised,
the enthusiasm of a ruse
incognito violating space,
a trace of kindness,
a trace of dignity,
a vagrancy spaced
by various font sizes and
chosen typesetting rules.

we are but fools if we cannot see
the signs! lines form on brows and
highways. cruel decision-makers rule
the broken white line
and i am inclined
to believe
i have too often been deceived
by meaning-well gentlemen
set on settling disputes or starting
them with mirrors placed
in spaces unintended.

decipher this and i will have extended
my hand in friendship, honored to have met
someone who can understand what i muse
after i have sent
it out from my heart.

a part

of me
is stagnant.
another part
longs for another
part of another
not yet met.

.............
(thanks for the inspiration.. spontaneous poetry from me... whatever it means, i have no clue)

-justme.3.25.2012

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 03/24/2012 - 21:53

Is this with alcohol or without? (The fact that I can't tell is a good thing.)

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

justme's picture

justme

Sat, 03/24/2012 - 22:03

4 vodka martinis. 3 paintings in the works. Spontaneously replied to the posts with poetry. Thank you! Time to sleep now. I think.... then again, I need more brush strokes on my paintings and dawn comes soon... good grief, is it tomorrow again already?

(thanks for reading)

billybudd

Sat, 03/24/2012 - 22:30

the image that obscures shatters
beneath glowering intensity
for what's behind beyond
bewildering mad reflection
now sneers back
in mocking multiplicity

the beauty beyond, never glimpsed
imagined, languishes remote
lives as much, as much is real
as the cad on the reciprocating surface
and his numberless anguishing
enmeshing memories

justme's picture

justme

Sat, 03/24/2012 - 22:41

the beauty beyond
fascinates, violates, excruciates,
annihilates the hatred, the ugliness,
the vile inconsistencies, the remedies
never found, the roundness of the moon globe
only grounded by visions held secret, secreted
through hormones and flesh, all our desires blessed
by humanness, reciprocated love....
so let us lie down humbly below the universe above,
take it all in, vanquish sin which never existed before,
adore every breath we take with the making of another
moment!

billybudd

Sat, 03/24/2012 - 23:04

expands, swells - burgeoning unbound infatuation
contracts, withers, desiccate - a destructed heart
with each breath, with every cycle
a passage

justme's picture

justme

Sat, 03/24/2012 - 23:17

where's the like button? like on FB? ;) ... Enjoyed this verse!

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 03/24/2012 - 22:47

Is this billybudd circa 2002 or billybudd circa 2012?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

billybudd

Sat, 03/24/2012 - 23:08

I never know - one moment per mostly.

Time stamp says about 20 of midnight, Saturday in March.

Where were we twenty aught two?

justme's picture

justme

Sat, 03/24/2012 - 23:15

recycled poetry?
that's ok.. it's happened to me before.

hey billybudd.. thank you for the repartee... enjoyed it very much!

and becket? .. you are a gem! thnx for the conversation and caring!

I'm justme... i'm a woman, btw... if you hadn't already guessed... I like to write, to paint and to play piano and sometimes I get lost on the internet.... and elsewhere. Maybe I'm lost now. I don't know.

thank you both for the communication! Greatly appreciated!

Gnight!

Pages