Does SMART Recovery go into any jails or prisons looking for cutomers and then deny that they are doing that?

JR Harris's picture
Submitted by JR Harris on Tue, 03/20/2012 - 19:42

One of the main deflection techniques of the Alcoholics Anonymous faithful is to try and deflect the topic to SMART Recovery saying that it is the same thing, just not as prevalent. That is actually not true. First off does SMART go into any jails or prisons and then deny that they are doing it looking for customers?

The second deflection tactic is that SMART Recovery does not have enough meetings to match the demand coming from the court systems, jails and prisons. This is of course very evident and it is because Alcoholics Anonymous has built this demand by supplying these services to the court systems and jails and prisons and denying they do it. Of course SMART Recovery can't keep up with the demand that Alcoholics Anonymous has made. An easy to understand analogy for this is "If you build it, they will come."

The third deflection tactic of the Alcoholics Anonymous faithful is that if people were mandated to SMART Recovery like Alcoholics Anonymous, they would both have the same problems. The only thing wrong with this is that SMART Recovery is really made for people who want to quit, and Alcoholics Anonymous is made for the most part for people who are mandated or "Interventioned" upon who don't really want to quit.

Lets get all of the deflection tactics out of the way...... they are getting very tiring.

http://www.smartrecovery.org

Comments

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:03

SMART does not "suggest" (i.e. strongly require through cult tactics, like AA does) that you need one. It is not part of the program. Period. SMART does not require, suggest, support, condone that you have a "Higher Power."

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:08

So, who cares? That isn't even what I said. I simply said that 60% of members surveyed did cop to having one.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:29

If you were to walk up to fellow members of SMART and said, "I believe in God", I am sure they would not ask you to leave. So, SMART supports your higher power. The founder of SMART I am sure would say if asked he supports members believing in God, hence SMART supports higher power.
It condones, suggests it is OK, requires if you say so and finally supports your higher power.
No where in SMART literature does it say they will not support, condone, suggest or require that you don't have a higher power.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Wed, 03/21/2012 - 18:52

You betchum, Red Ryder! No accusations against SMART.

You have to accuse AA of something to be a SMART apologetic. Yeah, that's the ticket! Anyone can make up anything (accuse) just to label someone else an apologetic. Easy peasy.

SMART and AA are both recovery programs. Plain and simple.

If people think you are a [fill in the blank], you probably are.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Wed, 03/21/2012 - 19:08

Does a guilty conscience make you keep bringing up AA?

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 03/21/2012 - 09:51

I don't have a link to it, but I downloaded the President's Letter from SMART Recovery News & Views, volume 18, Issue 1 - Winter 2012. I was very surprised by this version of the Grapevine, athough I liked a lot of the information in it. It took me aback that despite the confidentiality clause on page 41 of the handbook, there are photos and names in this internet publication...

I like this program, Cause. It's as if science caught up with what early pioneers thought about alcoholism.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Wed, 03/21/2012 - 09:58

people have been "saved" by Alcoholics Anonymous? How convenient. Also the "confidentiality clause" is not the "Anonymity" clause of the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous. Look it up, both words mean something different.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:40

Clara, here's what SMART says about the higher power and what science shows:

"PLEASE NOTE: SMART Recovery® neither promotes nor disparages religion or spirituality, regarding those as personal choices or beliefs. Because this area is sometimes contentious, it should also be noted that we do not regard spirituality as an essential ingredient in recovery or any other health related problem. This is still sometimes being asserted despite growing research showing that it is NOT essential and that, for some people, it may be harmful or at least unnecessarily complicating."

http://www.smartrecovery.org/resources/library/For_Family_Volunteers_Pro...

Of course, you should know that since you've read the facilitator's training manual. BTW, that's how you provide a link to support your statements, just so you'll know.

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Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 03/21/2012 - 13:28

I said what the member survey said, Cause. Did you read that, too? So what we have here are 60% of members surveys believing in a higher power despite it prehaps not being necessary for success. Maybe for these people, they still do consider it important.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Wed, 03/21/2012 - 18:59

Yes, Clara. Once I found it, I read it. Thank you for the details of how to find it. Of course, you realize that also means 40% don't have a higher power, right?

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Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 09:52

Which is fine, too.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 11:04

This is the SMART Founders opinion. Bill Wilson had his opinion. Doesn't mean in either case one has to follow what they believe in order for their designs for living to be effective.
The problem here is the rigid interpretation of AA and SMART that some of the members have here. It is either black or white, nobody really lives life as such. There is much more gray then is being admitted here.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:00

I can tell people where I find information. If they care to see it, they can look it up. The 2011 membership surveys will be out this summer after it has been voted on at Assembly.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:06

A survey is a survey. it is supposed to be facts, not something "agreed upon" by an Assembly. That speaks very heavily of fraud. What are they doing, vote on it and if it doesn't pass, change the numbers and vote on it again until it does pass?

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:09

It is like anything that gets into minutes. You vote on acceptance of the record. I am usre you understand that. But so much for all the previous blather about that survey.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:14

Gee I wonder why it didn't get voted in? I also wonder why it is 1 year late? Did they not vote it in a year ago for some reason? I wonder what that reason is?

If people think you belong to a cult, you probably are.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 03/21/2012 - 13:22

I think they did it in 2011. It's now 2012. Those take time. so much for not doing them anymore.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:32

JR, that's exactly what I was thinking, it smacks of fraud. I think they are trying to do damage control and that's why we see impossible numbers in past surveys; ones that even casual observation disprove. Fortunately they can't vote in AAssembly about outside research that shows AA is ineffective.

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Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 03/21/2012 - 13:30

I don't think so. You have a group of people that meets yearly to vote. When we have our monthly business meeting, each person of service tells his report and we vote to accept or not. I can't imagine that it is much different on higher levels.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:13

Wait. Why would an assembly need to vote on releasing survey results?

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JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:33

I can see it now, in a dark smoked filled room in a secluded part of the conference away from the main body of members

AA chairperson says: "Well the survey results are out and it doesn't look good, AA is shrinking and relapse is happening more often. the number of mandated members jumped from 11% to 45%. Should we publish this?"

Silence for several minutes

A Big Bill bellows from the back or the room: "Of course not, it will kill Alcoholics if we tell the truth!"

In unison all members quickly chant: "I second that motion!"

And the truth is buried for another year........

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 09:53

They vote on everything. I was just reading in the Missouri Conference about changes to various pamphlets. They literally vote on a two word change.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 09:58

You mean they are going to vote on changing a survey, just like they do pamphlets? Your digging your hole deeper.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 11:39

I am not digging any hole, JR. The delegate meet yearly and vote on whatever issues are brought to the forum and also any changes in the material. For something to be "conference approved," don't you think there is a process for that? Do be so quick to misunderstand...

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 11:45

You mean like, "we claimed 1.5 million last year with no proof, let's claim 2 million this year." Then of course there is also the," we will have to change the triennial survey so that it looks like that", anyone second that motion?

Testing your AA trivia Clara. Who decided upon the "conference approved" label and its use in Alcoholics Anonymous?

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

flannigan

Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:01

What did the "early pioneers" think about alcoholism? And who were they? What and whom are you referring to? What do you mean by "as if science caught up with what the early pioneers thought about alcoholism"?

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:23

flannigan, that's what I'd like to know. I think it's a question that really needs to be answered.

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causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:03

Clara, the suggestion that science has caught up to wilson is absurd. The current research is showing how damaging AA's approach has been for all these decades. Science is moving away from anything 12 step. Unfortunately, it's taking far too much time and people are still dying, just as they have been for decades, as a result of an incorrect approach which often results in MORE drinking for many.

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Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:07

You can believe what you chose to believe, CAuse. Ain't it great? Bill W. and others felt that the alcoholic was "different" bioloically than others. That he couldn't pin it on pleasure centers doesn't really matter. This has been studied since the 50's.

You don't have to agree with me.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:09

Cause, you are not a scientist and your comments come from others (not necessarily scientists either) that are promoting their own brand of treatment. Of course they want to get paid also.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:16

I have done a great deal of research and my information come from studies done by prestigious addictions professionals, not people promoting their own brand of recovery. None of my research comes from treatment centers.

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Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:38

Yes some of your research does come from people making gobs of money off their ideas of treatment.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:44

Listen lets get something straight here, you have not studied in any college or university. You have not been a student under any professional. All you have done is copied and pasted to many files information you gathered from Googling. Which all of us could do if we sat home all day, everyday. That is not considered "research" in any professional opinion.
Plus all the information you can paste here has your jaded slant on it. So it is not an objective opinion.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Wed, 03/21/2012 - 19:04

Actually, I have been to College, danny. I'd appreciate it if you would quit assuming you know things about me. And yes danny, it is research. As I've told you before, you can't just go making things up. Well, you can, but nobody else believes you.

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Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 10:57

Do you have a bachelors, masters, Phd and/or doctorate in any corresponding field dealing with the subjects we discuss here. If so, Bravo, I will stand down and become a student.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 11:02

You do seem to be the only Danny B apologetic on this board. Why is that?

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 11:14

Why are you the only member left on this site that refuses to stop acting like a jerk. Every other member including myself have reached agreements to demonstrate restraint and respect for each other but not you. It is always "not you" JR. It is obvious to Orange, the members here and the audience that just reads that your only purpose here JR, is to incite hostility. Which is why if you noticed no one answers your questions or has any dialog with you at all. You really have no idea how to act responsibly on a site such as this.
That's it from me, you have heard it all before. Try growing up JR Harris.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 11:52

I am also the author of this thread. So just calm down now and don't be dragging any girls behind your car into this or anything. OK?

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 11:15

Dupe

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 11:26

danny, did you not see my reference to Abnormal Psychology on the other site? You should have. It was meant specifically for you. BTW, everybody loves JR. Oh, and every other member has definitely NOT agreed to exercise restraint, especially when it comes to you.

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Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:04

Hi, Flan. I find a lot in the SMART program to be AA revisted. I like the program alot and also that Tom views it as a stand alone therapy or one that can be used in conjunction with 12 step programs.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:10

No SMART does not. How can you say it is Alcoholics Anonymous revisited. Slogans, Chanting and a Higher Power is the entire program of AA.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 03/21/2012 - 13:32

They just might. When I can find a meeting to go to, I'll let you know how they did it.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

flannigan

Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:08

Thanks for your response. But I still have no clue as to who or what the "early pioneers" were or what they thought about alcoholism. I also am in the dark as to what "science has caught up to".

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:16

Off to have lunch with hubby. I am sure this board won't collapse without me for a cople of hours!

Let me tell you about my wonderful group. When members read Spike's obit on my facebook page, they put in for an order of flowers. Even though it was hard to wake up to no dog sleeping in his bed in his corner, it was overwhelming to get that beautiful bouquet from a group of people that live 27 hours away. THESE are the experiences I have in AA.

And I'll beat you to the punch, JR. Any group can authorize what it spends its money on if these flowers were funded by the group. And any member could have just bought them and had them delivered in the name of the group.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:19

Aw. Clara. I'm really sorry about your dog. Rest in peace, Spike.

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flannigan

Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:20

I am sorry about the death of your dog Spike.

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:23

Thank you for the kind words. It was a tough day yesterday, but I knew it would be a matter of time when we got the diagnosis in January. I will tell you, though, that the experinces have changed my opinion about mmj. I saw immeasurable differences in him even if it was for a short while. The issue will have a place in my efforts.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:32

My family and I send our condolences. Love you sweetie.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

becket's picture

becket

Wed, 03/21/2012 - 19:23

Clara,
There are those who have dogs and there are those who have family. I know from reading your posts that Spike was your baby and that right up until the end you were searching for solutions and palliative care for him. Here's what I tell my friends who have lost a pet:

"In its simplest form, the First Law of Thermodynamics states that neither matter nor energy can be created or destroyed." Spike as you knew him has left this earth, but that energy stays, and I believe it stays close by. As long as you live he will be in your memory, so as long as you live Spike lives, too. I'm very, very sorry for your loss, but we don't get to do more than the best we could do. He knew you loved him. He still knows.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

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