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PLease feel free to come over and let her have it.
It is woman like her who keep AA in the DARK AGES of the 1950's
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 14:47
I care what is said when children can hear them screaming there message and being vulgar. You cant help but hear it!
I care that AA leaders are stating that God is the only way. I have been told by other AA members and have read that is not how a meeting is to be run.
Articles of Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymouswww.nadaytona.org
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 14:53
That may be true in their neck of the woods, but not everywhere. Due to the traditions, how meetings are comported vary widely. Here in EP, they have no singleness of purpose, but that wouldn't fly in MB. That's why I am so shocked... but at the same time they are different because they CAN be. Those AA members advising you are overlooking alot, and the first thing is that each group can comport itself as it wants. Could it be possible that they are telling you simply what you may want to hear?
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 20:37
Clara, I already answered that question.
Troll free AA critical forumhttp://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
Tue, 03/20/2012 - 07:34
What question, Cause? I may have asked one. Yesterday was a busy posting day, a drop in at court, lunch with my husband, and time with my dog. I frankly don't remember.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 13:44
Exactly. It's not anti-God. It's anti lying. The God/religion issue just happens to be one of the things that they lie about.
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 13:53
AVO- totally. I get tired of people assuming people are of a certain belief system If they object to them lying about religion, you are considered an atheist. Atheists and other religions should not have to sit there and listen to the lords prayer. It excludes them, and makes them uncomfortable.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 14:56
They can leave. Plenty of people DO leave for the closing prayers. Some groups opt to have nothing at all, others close with the serenity prayer instead of starting the meeting that way. I've never seen anyone walk away from that, but I have also seen chair offer the serenity or "to do with time as you wish" which generally means people just stay quiet. And none of these things are "wrong."
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 15:04
but I really hope they keep doing it. It is one of the many fucked up things about AA I credit for allowing me to see through the Billshit extra fast. It really is a great way to alienate Jews and Muslims who have never heard or used this prayer before. I've mentioned here before the way people used to glare at me as I stood silently in the circle. I was at a rehab, so I couldn't leave the circle.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 15:06
Sondi is Jewish and she says the prayer. So does Dena and Jane.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 15:16
Maybe they say the prayer, but I am certain they didn't learn it in temple. They must have learned it at the meeting. I know it too, from the meetings.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 15:30
Do you go to temple? Does your girlfriend go with you?
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 15:36
I was Bat Mitzvahed and I was last in a temple this past Sunday. I do not currently belong to a temple, but the one I was Bat Mitzvahed in had many gay members in our congregation.
No, why would my girlfriend come with me? I'm sure Chinese Jews exist but she isn't one of them.
Looks like it is time for a new angle.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 19:10
Why would she not? Wouldn't that be enlightening, to know what temple is all about? The Chinese part has nothing to do with it. Would she not be welcome?
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 23:23
As a Chinese person, as a female, and as my girlfriend.
Persephone In Exile
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 18:06
Yes, it's wrong. It's exclusionary, it's insulting, and it's even more archaic than the tripe written about women in the BB. And is SURE as hell shouldn't fly in any rehabs that accept money from insurance and/or the government.
Oddly, I was still a Christian when I last saw that little ritual, and even then it really struck me as one of the most inappropriate things I'd seen. Nowadays? I'd probably tell them where to stick it. Seriously, how that one doesn't send people running and screaming is still a mystery to me.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 15:08
The Lord's prayer has no place at any AA meeting. It's simple, really. Eliminate it altogether. Then, you can choose to say it after the meeting.
"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 15:14
But why? Here are all these suggestions from people that don't go anyway, so why care? If it is their group conscience, a group can do what it wants. Or not.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 18:22
I always refused to say it, at least in modern English. Sometimes I'd say it in Latin, though I'd usually just go for this version:
Fæder úre, ðú ðe eart on heofonum,
Sí ðín nama gehálgod.
Tó becume ðín rice.
Gewurde ðín willa
On eorþan swá swá on heofonum.
Urne dægwhamlícan hlaf syle ús tódæg.
And forgyf ús úre gyltas,
Swá swá wé forgyfaþ úrum gyltendum.
And ne gelæd ðu ús on costnunge,
Ac álýs ús of yfele. Sóþlice.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 15:11
Reciting the Lord's Prayer and holding hands with others made me very uncomfortable in AA and I'm Catholic. It's an insult, those using it to express their faith in another HP and not God. Like the moon, or their sponsor, or a group of drunks. It is specifically a Christian Prayer for those that share the belief that specifically Jesus Christ is their God, and the one and only. Why can't they use a different prayer? Maybe they can design one that fits their needs.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 15:26
Avo, I must have missed where Jesus is mentioned in the Lord's Prayer.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 17:55
No, Jesus is not specifically mentioned in the Lord's Prayer by name, although it is a Christian prayer and a gift from Jesus himself. He taught it to his apostles at their request, when they specifically asked him for guidance in praying to God. This God is our Father and is the one and the only God for Christians.
God is not to be confused with the polytheistic Gods of Alcoholics Anonymous- meaning those that are chosen specifically for one's own purpose, or any other Gods. It is considered blasphemous, a sin committed directly against God. It is disresctful to a Christian that holds true to their faith. Well, it is to me.
“Thou shalt have no other gods before My Presence.” (Exodus 20:3).
“I the LORD thy God am a jealous God” (Exodus 20:5)
I'm not telling anyone else that they should follow the Ten Commandments or the Bible. I'm only trying to explain to you my views, and my feelings...since you inquired.
Again, it makes me very uncomfortable and I do think it's rude and inconsiderate (let alone a sin) for someone else (a group of people that are supposed to be spiritual and enccourag each other to seek out and have faith in their HP), to so casually use a sacred prayer without taking into consideration it's origins and meaning. Charles Spurgeon gave a sermon about the Our Father which he is well remembered for. Check it out.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 18:08
OK, I realize that Avo is taking this one already, but Clara, do you seriously not know the origin of that prayer?
Tue, 03/20/2012 - 07:21
No, I didn't. But it still isn't a prayer to Jesus. It's a prayer to God.
Tue, 03/20/2012 - 07:44
Was that supposed to be funny, Clara? I mean, I suppose you could be either a Muslim or some extremely late blooming advocate of Arianism, but 2000 years of non-Arian Christian theology would insist that that (prayers to God or Jesus) is the same thing. Any other theological views I'm missing that would make your statement in any way valid?
Tue, 03/20/2012 - 07:47
There probably is, PIE. But I don't feel the need to discuss it with you.
Tue, 03/20/2012 - 08:57
That's fine, but it's also a very important theological point, and it is what creates such a rift between those who would like xA to remain religious, those who would prefer it to be "spiritual" (and therefore more accessible to the masses) and those who would like no religion at all interspersed in their recovery. If you're going to take the Lord's Prayer, then you must take at least some consensus of Christian theology along with it, and if you do that then you must be (at least) aware that you're in a group that is asking you to pray to the triune God.
Unless you just dismiss it all as fluff, at which point AA groups might as well be chanting the lyrics to "Louie, Louie", whatever those actually are, because otherwise it means NOTHING. (Which, by the way, is exactly what Jesus excoriated the pagans for doing. Um, not "Louie, Louie" specifically, but chanting mindlessly;)
Tue, 03/20/2012 - 09:50
It's important to understand the meaning if for no other reason then to make sure it's not used incorrectly. Especially seeing that it's intent was to teach people how to communicate with God. One God only.
For anyone that does not believe in Jesus, or that Jesus and his teachings are not the way in which they understand God, why use it? Why slap those that are God's children in the face? It is specifically designed by Jesus for his disciples, and everyone that believes they are children of God. It's supposed to be recited with careful thought and precision and they are not words thrown together that have universal definitions.
God warns everyone not to be tempted by other God's that want to replace Him. Many Christians in good standing carry themselves with this wisdom and with fear of that encroachment. Teaching people to choose any HP does this. If it is with intent, I can’t say. I won’t say, because it is too scary and too complicated for me to contemplate. I don’t want to believe it’s true. I hope it’s only out of error and due to the lack of understanding. I also don’t want to think it is with intent to recruit. For those that are warned not to fall into such a trap, I don’t think it would be proper behavior to engage that way themselves.
Tue, 03/20/2012 - 12:47
Avo, it just seems like a lost cause. Someone who says this prayer in every meeting but doesn't understand what it means, nor its origin? And doesn't care to discuss it? This is one of the most interesting things to be brought up around here in quite some time, IMHO, yet it's not something to be discussed. Um hmm...
Tue, 03/20/2012 - 18:35
No one needs to know the origin of the prayer to understand its meaning. They are reciting in English, are they not?
Tue, 03/20/2012 - 18:39
No offense, but that's one of the most foolish things I've read in a long time.
Tue, 03/20/2012 - 18:45
Please explain why.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 18:47
Jesus gave us the Lord's Prayer.
Luke 11:2-11:4 and Matthew 6:9-6:13
Go ahead, enjoy yourselves - it's getting late, much later than you think.
Tue, 03/20/2012 - 18:38
So is Jesus Lord? Or Is God Lord? Or is Jesus God? And what about the Holy Spirit? Is the Holy Spirit Christ or God or both? Do you trust the authenticity and accuracy of the gospels? Why?
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 19:11
AVO- that is what bothers me as a Christian, is that AA is a pagan religion and goes against the principles of Christianity. Yet they keep talking about God and quoting scripture out of the bible, but telling people they can believe in inanimate objects as a HP. AA needs to make up it's mind if it indeed wants to be Christian, and state such, or do not bring up religion at all. It confuses people and makes them uncomfortable whether they are an atheist or a Christian,Muslim or Jew because AA does a disservice to all.
Tue, 03/20/2012 - 18:43
AA has always impressed me as being non-denominational. Why must it identify itself as Christian or not-Christian? What is it that makes it "pagan"?
AA doesn’t lie about it. Do you? I have noticed many members like to say AA lies about the steps being a religious experience. Please show me in the BB where it says it isn’t. You can’t!!
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 07:06
It is kinda a given I feel AA has a responsibility in the prevention of crime in the rooms. Of course the criminal is responsible, with AA enabling and creating a perfect storm to commit them, thus making AA liable as well.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 07:17
Anti, I spoke with my sponsor about this. The majority of criminals never get caught for anything. There are more predators at large in society than will ever be prosecuted, and they are always looking for targets. You and Massive help them in their goal by publicizing the vulnerable addicted women and children in these fellowships and how there is just no one to help thwart those behaviors, that they are so helpless and no one gets punished. For some you might help, great. But there is that percentage that will listen to you for their personal advantage that never knew that about AA. Speak loudly. They will hear you.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 07:22
This is why criminal or not- there should be separate meetings for minors. Not that I support the AA message to them that they are addicts for life and need to go to meetings for life.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 07:24
That is like saying no one should have brought up sexual abuse in the churches.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 07:31
anti, it's not anything like that, and I am not suggesting that anyone stop. It was told to me that there are two sides to a coin. On any given day, you could be helping either side.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 07:55
" You and Massive help them in their goal by publicizing the vulnerable addicted women and children in these fellowships and how there is just no one to help thwart those behaviors, that they are so helpless and no one gets punished"
This statement of yours pretty much sums up that you think what we are doing is harmful, yet you then say you are not suggesting anyone stop.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 08:03
No, I don't think you thought of the other side of the coin. I know that I didn't until my sponsor brought it up to me.
You know from reading Massive's blog that I have intervened before in situations I thought were unhealthy. In that same post, I also talk about what happened. It wasn't very appreciated.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 07:25
Alcoholics Anonymous is a secret society where the giving up of secrets to anonymous people is constantly encouraged. There is a higher percentage and possibility of giving this information to someone who would use it against you in the rooms of AA than any other place on earth (please tell me where it is more dangerous). I know, your group is safe and encourages male/female Sponsor/Sponsorship relations just like Mike Q was doing in Midtown who was the Sponcee of Clancy I.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 07:33
Assumption on your part. My sponsor became my sponsor before I even chose a group.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 07:38
Does your Sponsor often go out looking for female prospects to Sponsor? Where did he pick you up at if it wasn't at the coven home group or on a prospect hunting trip to jails and prisons?
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 07:36
Clara, this is a new low, and the most fucking stupid thing I have ever read here.
And that says something.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 07:42
It very rational if you spend five seconds thinking about it. It's not a deliberate effort on their part, but you cannot control who uses your information and for what purpose. What is an alarm to one is a feed bell to another. That's just logic. Look at the example on Massive's board about the guy that cruises meetings looking for damage model types. He heard it from somewhere and he's deliberately there for a not so nice reason.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 08:10
He actually heard it from an AA member who gossips. It is unlikely that random men will go to Massive's site and decide to go to AA as a result to do some 13 stepping. Let's face it - AA members do enough of that anyway so even if they did it won't make much difference. I am sure that many women who are in contact with Massive are thankful that she is doing something to try an change things for the better. However it is refreshing to hear you say that some of the people in AA are not their for a good reason at last compared to the normal not at my meeting, everything is great response. Perhaps you should try following your own advise and think about things for more that 5 seconds before typing up some condescending ,ill thought out answer or quote you equally ignorent sponsor.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 14:37
I think he knows more about what is roaming around in society than you do, MF. He is the defense attorney, you know. My meetings were great. I am not going to say that we didn't have people interested in others, but I know of no rapes, burnings, lickings and the other stuff that Massive decries as widespread and powerless against. BS. You can go to the cops just as any other person on the planet. Some people that are in AA DON'T want to be there for the reasons it exist. Nothing fresh about that.