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PLease feel free to come over and let her have it.
It is woman like her who keep AA in the DARK AGES of the 1950's
Sun, 03/18/2012 - 19:33
As can be seen by Lisa, she is obviously an active 12 Step chanter suffering from Stockholm Syndrome where her "program" can not possibly have anything to do with ENABLING the actions of the sexual perverts that AA recruits from jails and prisons and hides in a veil of Anonymity. Have pity on the poor brainwashed soul, who is trying to blame the victim:
"Lisa said, on March 18, 2012 at 1:18 pm
Of course these things go on. We are alcoholics, for God’s sake. We are sick people, especially when we are new. However, we are each responsible for our own decisions and our own behavior. That means that if YOU were thirteenth stepped and you bought into it, YOU screwed up. If YOU have been around for awhile and were taken advantage of by a NEWCOMER, YOU are responsible. What an utter waste of time and a complete slap in the face to those of us who are members in good standing to start a public forum (eleventh tradition?) about an indiscretion on YOUR part. It’s like asking for world peace. A complete waste of time because some people are just bad, to put it nicely. If you want to stop thirteenth stepping call the people on it when you see it and warn newcomers about it when the come in, especially of you sponsor them. If they do it anyway, THEY are responsible for the outcome. We each have a personal responsibility to try to prevent it, but I am not responsible for controlling other people’s behavior. I am responsible, however, for carrying the message of recovery to the alcoholic who still suffers. Singleness of purpose, friends. Keep comin’ back!"
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Sun, 03/18/2012 - 20:17
A crime is a crime, inside the rooms and out. She did have a point, though. You can warn all you like, but if someone is going to go out with someone, I've seen those warnings go out the windows. That is when you pray and hope for the best.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 00:19
Yes I think we all know that two consenting adults of the same age and same time sober who are not sex offenders will do as they wish , but we are talking about the ones who piss off the guys as well as the women and no one is doing anything about it.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 03:42
Massive, I went over to your site when you rushed in here looking for support, and I am almost embarrassed that I did. I discovered that you spent decades in a fellowship that you claim did nothing for you. What I can't wrap my head around is that you didn't just get up and leave when you realized it wasn't working for you. If I kept relapsing, kept feeling badly about myself, didn't like the people involved and just couldn't see how it would work... I would have tried something else.
I went over to your site and I saw a mean girls mentality that is straight out of a bar, complete with the language. EVERY person posting had valid points, yet you get peeved and threaten to call the police if someone posts on your site again because you disagreed. I know women that knowingly date sex offenders, abusers, all sorts of sordid stuff... and this isn't in AA. It's just life to a point and the choices you make. There are some people that simply will not listen and then resent you. If the guys are pissed off, why aren't they choking up the brass tacks to call someone on their behavior?
A crime is a crime. I have never been told that I couldn't address something just for what it is. When my car was broken into, I called the police and made a report. But it couldn't be said that an AA did it because I didn't know. When a woman threatened me that I had tried to befriend (came to my house to do it), I let her know in short order what would happen to her if it ever happened again. I am powerless over alcohol when it enters my body. I cannot make any assurance what goes on after that, one drink, perhaps three or more. But I can have choice in my life, and I was never discouraged from thinking that I gave up my rights as a person when I entered AA.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 06:56
Just to set the record straight Clara, Massive did not relapse. I know you do not think AA is a cult, I do.
The problem with the cult of AA is that they tell you if you do not stay that you will fail. That you need meetings for life. Many people on this blog experienced this. It is called brainwashing. So please don't be so patronizing to Massive or others that have been in AA or NA and left.
Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymouswww.nadaytona.org
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 08:53
Does Massive post as Sally, Anti?
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 08:56
Why do you ask prospect hunter? Trisha K (Danny B, the infamous troll of Elan fame) was asking about that also.
What about the subject of this thread, 13 Stepping. Why don't you keep up with that.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 11:44
Massive is Massive.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 12:27
She knows, she's not talking. Non-responsive. Totally predictable.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 12:26
I went to the "blog", too, and it appears that it's highly possible - perhaps even probable - that Massive posts back and forth between herself and "Sally" (also herself) to bolster the negative viewpoint. I don't really care, but that's just how it appears.
The focus over there still seems to be a frantic screech that "NOTHING IS BEING DONE AND PEOPLE ARE GETTING HURT!!!" Well, we can each only do what we can and we cannot make any other human beings do what we think they should. So my suggestion to Massive and the other screechers is to keep doing what you're doing, step it up wherever you can, file lawsuits if you can, expose individuals where you can, and let the chips fall where they may. When it's all said and done I believe AA will still be standing, having changed very little; when you get tired of not being heard you'll move on to some other causes within which you can find fulfillment and identity. I don't disagree with a lot of what's being said about safety and the mandating of criminals to meetings, but you are looking at a monolith of established protocol, history and, for the most part, the mentality of a good ol' boys' club. Recognize your enemy, know your enemy, tell the truth, and wait for the wheels to turn.
Persephone In Exile
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 12:31
Massive is Massive. And pretty open about also using her real name.
Tue, 03/20/2012 - 00:11
We can not make individuals do what we want them to do. Yes we can.
One can not drink and drive.
One can not smoke inside a bar anymore in most cities in the US
I can not bring a knife on an airplane anymore.
One can not text and drive.
There are all kinds of laws.
One can not own slaves anymore.
... That is what the Law is. If a person is sexually harassed the victim of simple sexual harassment has the law to stop them. With their words they can tell them stop it. But most men don't. Yes , women harass men in the work place and AA too. ....this is a common occurrence in the work place. So then we have a lawyer sue the individual and they go to court and they tell the man to behave because he didnt know how to behave and even if he did he still harassed her. So with money he/she is forced to change. The Catholic Church , the Klu Klux Klan were both sued by victims and the victims won.
Let's take the original EAP programs. They get a pilot, let's say who was flying a plane drunk. They take him aside and say, you stop drinking or we fire you. Now they say , you go to rehab or we fire you. The guy changes his behavior on account he wants to keep his job.
AA could easily mandate that all meetings read a safety statement like the meeting I was a part of and it was my idea and my motion to add it to the format. We said that " no one should be sexual or financially harassed in any way" We want you to feel safe" etc. We discussed, many hours upon hours and agreed unanimously to make the change even though we had no men and no predators of any kind at this nice meeting. We wanted to set an example for women to feel safe.
Soon many young woman starting showing up at our meeting telling us their stories. Many horror stories.
It was the Make AA Safer Workshops that really gave the AA community a voice to talk about it with out judgement. Table of 10 , men and women , about 40 people showed up, discussing many aspects of problems, violence, financial scamming, cult behavior, bullying and the 13 stepping and then rape.
The literature was great but it was born out of need from the workshops.
There is so much covering up, pretending it's not my business mentality in AA, and what you are saying here that AA can not kick anyone out. That is seriously twisting what that tradition meant when it was written. Or is it that Bill Wilson was such a 13 stepper that is is just a part of his fucking stupid legacy of treating Lois and other woman like dogs. He was a user. He was a sex addict. Read Tom Powers story who wrote the 12 & 12 with him.
Then I met with the chairman of AA, WARD EWING a priest. He said that the church didn't make changes until the insurance companies said you'd better or we wont insure you anymore. He agreed that AA must address this issues at the World Headquarters as well.
I feel that every delegate and every AA employee needs sexual harassment training. And then that AA GSO should send a letter to every GSR, Area DCM, and Secretary and every Central Office, asking them to hold business meetings and discuss the subject. They should mandate that every district have a Make AA Safer Workshop like Paul C helped me create and their were many put on.
I feel that under 18 should not be allowed at a meeting. There is no teen AA and TV shows should stop pretending their is such a thing which is totally lying to the viewing audience who then drops their teen off at an teen meeting which is sure to have a sexual predator there. This is another whole can of worms.
WE agreed that the Safety Pamphlet that we wrote was good and we would make an announcement and provide them at every meeting. They were a great tool, but because AA is a culture and not just a meeting it is in the discussing in the round tables were each person can just tell their experience, each person can say what they have seen and figure out that as community they have to change it. Left alone doing nothing is deadly as we have seen with Kristine and Saundra Cass in Hawaii who were murdered senselessly.
Im sorry, but I did not wait and nor will I wait for the wheels to turn.
Change has to be fought for.
Women had to fight for the right to choose.
African AMericans had to fight for Civil rights.
The Chinese workers making f##king ipads and iphone are fighting to be treated fairly so perhaps they will stop killing themselves in China because they are so mistreated by APPLE.
I hope after this work I will fight for another good cause whatever that might be and that I will never find myself sitting in a stupid meeting chanting ridiculous garbage from the BB calling myself some untruth label like an alcoholic when I haven't had a drink in over 3 1/2 decades.
And what a joke that is. Who cares? Now looking back...I wish I left AA and found drink link moderation when I was 20 not AA. AA stole much from me. I hope I can save a few young people from wasted 30 years of their lives in AA rooms repeating absolute nonsense that was never proven to be true.
I am free now. I will continue my fight. I am grateful to OP and ST and those that have supported my journey while I was still in AA and since I left and those that supported me while I was leaving.
No one here understands what that was like for me. Unless you got sober at 18 because you wanted to. Were really in love with AA for years and were active in AA service like a fool and stayed sober for 36 years. Then your DAD died from that problem, he lost everything and you saw in a very personal way how AA didnt work for some. ANd so my search began. ANd Why did I not know Smart and Rational and WFS and SOS even existed???
I will not stop till I change laws, make AA accountable at every level and make Smart and other options as popular as Facebook, sliced bread and the internet.
And stop the powerless and disease theory from permeating everywhere.
Tue, 03/20/2012 - 01:37
"We can not make individuals do what we want them to do. Yes we can.
One can not drink and drive. People do it all the time.
One can not smoke inside a bar anymore in most cities in the US People still light up in spite of ordinances but are asked to take it outside.
I can not bring a knife on an airplane anymore. Not supposed to, but some do - a politician just got busted for taking a firearm onboard an aircraft in his carryon.
One can not text and drive. Many do, and some die.
More accurately, there will always be individuals who cannot be forced to live within the law. There have always been, and there will always be, people who break the law.
Tue, 03/20/2012 - 06:56
People don't seem to realize that laws are only as good as the enforcement behind them. How silly to think otherwise.
Tue, 03/20/2012 - 07:20
You can leave it easier for people to break the rules/laws or you can make it harder.
Is it fair to say that if smoking were still legal in bars more would be doing it? Yes. People have much less of a chance to breathe in second hand smoke now, or smell like an ashtray after a night out. Because of this new law.
If they didn't frisk and and deter people from bringing weapons on planes, it would be happeing more. At least logic tells us so.
Same with texting and driving or dui.
When you make it easy, more people that otherwise wouldn't be an "offender" become one.
Let's get rid of that opportunity and let's fight to make it much more difficult for known criminals and already offensive perps.
Give them the keys to the bank or lock the doors? Some will try and get in any way, some of those will succeed. Ward off the ones that use the opportunity just because it is there for the taking.
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
Tue, 03/20/2012 - 07:44
I agree. Enforce the laws. I don't know anyone that has been cited for texting while driving yet I know people that have died while doing it. I got "warned" for talking on my cell here in Tx (not illegal in SC). It never occured to me to ask about it because I saw everyone doing it. It's a heavy ticket 500.00, but it doesn't go on your record. They'd rather cite you for that than a 25.00 seatbelt violation. But most lawbreakers never get caught, which was the gist of some of my posts to Anti.
In all honesty, I believe that most laws are up to the discretion of the law. Just like those posts about those nasty smokers in Newport Beach at the AA meeting. Cite them! But if you are going to, be sure anyone else doing the same thing would be as well. It doesn't seem to be an enforced law, so don't paint some AAs as culprits. And if smoking was a draw to the parks in Florida, make it an ordinance that there is no smoking in city or state parks. Take the attraction away. But don't cite AA members but not the cute guy at the end of the exrcise station.
Tue, 03/20/2012 - 23:13
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 12:16
Clara, Massive wasn't a chronic relapser, I don't think she ever did relapse. You should give her radio show a listen sometime and get to know her area of activism a bit better.
In terms of calling the police, there really is nothing you can file a report on with emotional abuse. Someone who repeatedly asks out newcomers when they're vulnerable and then serially dumping them isn't committing a crime, unless one of them is a minor. Honestly, of all the things my old home group did wrong, that was one thing they did right, they were absolutely rabidly anti-13 stepping. They did not tolerate this and policed it within the group. Massive started, if I remember correctly, trying to do just that from within AA and had little to no support in her efforts.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 12:28
Does she broadcast on a 100,000 watt clear channel?
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 12:35
Ha!! I'd say Clear Channel is facing a bit more pressure currently than any 12 step group, wouldn't you? And for very good reason!
Massive is online, here: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/saferecovery
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 12:53
The point was, what is the range of her broadcast?
The AM band is allocated into three categories: local, regional, and clear channel. Not talking about Limbaugh here.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 13:13
LOL....good. I'm sure the link can answer your question better than I can, it's a web broadcast.
Tue, 03/20/2012 - 00:13
NO she has a show on FOX NEWS!!!!LOL
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 19:53
I have never relapsed 36 years almost 37 .Im not telling you my whole story here its already out there all over the web.
I dont get you.
Tue, 03/20/2012 - 07:14
If this is to me, Massive, I don't need to know your story. I was told that Sally and you were one in the same, and Sally talks about relapse. If I have confused you, you have my apologies. But I don't get how anyone can be made to stay in AA for three decades and it is someone's else's sitution. I would have been gone the first week if I hadn't heard something that spoke to me. I think there are myriad AA experiences out there, and that isn't to say that each one might not be true and valid. I also know women that came into the program at 18, 19 years old that are still there and happily so.
And I have said this one this board. AA doesn't claim to be the only option out there. It never did make that claim. Granted, when the literature was written 75 years ago, options such as SMART didn't exist. But I wonder why each person on this blog that decries AA isn't becoming a SMART facilitator. I used some of the same exercises in my AA career only to have AA naysayer scream, "oh, no you didn't." As if they have lived my program for me. I liked what I read about it. In order for your movement to be effective (but will probably not get rid of AA), options need to be provided because alcoholism is still going to be there, the root interest of it all.
I don't know why you didn't know about SMART when it started in 1992. I don't know why you didn't know about Hazelden, which was started in 1948. Or Alcoholics Victorious, started the same year. What about Betty Ford, which was started in 1982. That's been 30 years, Massive. The only thing I can say about people that don't know their options is that the research is up to them. And if I hadn't liked AA when I started, I would have been looking for an alternative because I believe I needed it.
Let's just agree that we don't get each other, Massive.
Sun, 03/18/2012 - 20:41
Jeebus Fracking Crackers. Some people just can't stop victim blaming to save their souls. Thanks JR, I went ahead and vented a bit.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 00:20
thanks for the venting!
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 12:06
Ooops sorry, not sure why I thought that was JR posting that, Massive! And yes, I'll vent against that sort of bile any time.
Sun, 03/18/2012 - 22:05
"We are alcoholics, for God’s sake. We are sick people, especially when we are new."
And you're apparently even more sick as a veteran, if after you have been there a while you still think that if one gets assaulted it is their fault.
Are alcoholics more prone to abuse others or to get abused? Or is it the other way around?
If it's both, recovery groups have a pretty good mixture of perps and victims.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 07:26
To be fair to Clara, we may be talking about two different things here.
I think that some people consider it to mean simply that someone with time asks out a newcomer. No violence or coercion happening.
Many of us see it for what it actually is (scummy), but it isn't a crime in itself. Maybe Clara is using the aforementioned definition, and would consider any relationship violence to be outside the scope of what 13 Stepping constitutes.
I personally believe that 13th Stepping is more sinister than that. The men (and women) who do it are not innocent, but predatory.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 09:04
Ironic, I think relationships of violence are crimes. That isn't 13 stepping, and I would encourage anyone to seek legal redress, AA or no AA, workplace or no, friend or not. I have said so before, and I thank you for addressing it.
i had something like that come up with that woman that had threatened me. We had gone to lunch and she was stalking her baby daddy because she was bound and determined he would pay for leaving her at the alter. When she saw his mother's car, she lunged over to her and confronted her and her friend. She thought they were hiding him so that he couldn't be arrested for these charges that turned out to be bogus and were dropped. This woman struck one with her car and she sped away with me protesting that we had to stop to see if she was injured. She came to my house and threatened me when I told her that I had no choice to be honest with what happened as I saw it. She thought because we were both AA members, I couldn't do that.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 13:28
I am pretty sure that most people are in agreement that 13th Stepping as we discuss it here usually involves sexual abuse or at the very least (criminal) coercion.
My opinion is that 13th stepping (the kind without violence) is wrong and it would be great if AA would police itself by way of female members being proactive in a sort of female newcomer rescue league. I went to hundreds of meetings and never knew that Step 4 (or is it 5?) involved a sexual inventory, but I think that sounds like it could get very messy. However, it isn't illegal. Maybe I don't get as angry about it (again) because I'm a lesbian. I'm used to men bombarding me (it has happened at meetings anytime my sexuality ended up being discussed) trying to convince me that I just haven't had the right dick yet (cue marietta lol I know how she loves the dick talk). I'm used to being spoken to lewdly and not getting rescued so I know how to handle it. I guess that makes me lucky in a way.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 14:05
Step fours don't involve revealing sexual inventory unless you choose to do that. In fact, the BB is pretty clear that our sex behavior is for God alone to judge. I don't know where people get that it has to be any big deal.
I wouldn't have been able to sit still for that. I think the language people choose to use speaks volumes about a person, not who or what they may be discussing. No one would talk like that to a man, and I know both gay men and lesbians in the fellowship. There is no reason to be crass or crude.
As for 13 step watchdogs, we had women that would tell us. I've spoken up, but I don't remember anything egregious.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 14:32
The 4th step does include sexual inventory. It is requested and advised. If AA thought it was between you and God, they would not get their perverted minds in the middle of it.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 14:45
Anti, you are simply wrong about this. For someone that has never participated, you simply don't know. I have shown you in the literature where it is not shared with anyone unless they choose to.
I will be going to the park meeting in two weeks. Just booked the flight. I plan to meet with Intergroup reps and then I will enjoy the rest of my Florida vacation.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 14:49
They are asked and encouraged to tell there sexual inventories.
Sun, 03/18/2012 - 22:08
This reminds me of meetings around here when the opening reader says:
"We are sick people"
And at that point the rest of the group chants: "
"Sick", all in unison.
It is sooo negative!
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 03:49
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 11:58
Glad that's local to your area. I never heard or participated in any such thing.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 22:16
It was very common in the regular meetings that younger people attending. College age members.
Another saying even more common was "It works if you work it....you die if you don't". Just like the other, if one person said the first part: "It works if you work it". Then in unison the rest would chime in "you die if you don't". That's real culty and again, no joke.
Tue, 03/20/2012 - 07:33
Here they just chant at the end, "It works if you work it, sucks if you don't". I suppose that's in keeping with the other heavy strains of anti-intellectualism shown by most members.
Sun, 03/18/2012 - 22:53
"Men who 13 step in the rooms and sexually assault other AA members, is the fault of the perpetrator, not the victim."
No argument here.
"AA should not be allowing mandated killers and rapists into rooms along with minors Sean. Alateen does background check and implements other safety measures for minors. I want AA to do the same thing for the minors they invite. If they cannot protect the children and teens then they should only have meetings for adults."
A do-able solution.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 04:14
Yes, press charges if you have a case. Quite doable. And I have no problem keeping minors out of adult meetings. You are an adult at 18 in most places, so that's fine. Go to young people groups if you are not 18. That's all fine. I don't get why anyone feels that these options haven't existed for a number of years. Craig started a young persons group when he entered the fellowship at 24 over 30 years ago.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 06:45
There you go stating things you know are not true Clara. One not every area has a womens group.
Also Young Peoples meetings include people well into adulthood, and their are no safety precautions like there is in Alateen. Young peoples meetings give outsiders the impression they might be handled like Alateenn. Yet they are no different than AA in their structure.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 06:51
Then suggest someone start one! We have 5 in the MB area, and I know women that have gone their entire AA career going solely to women's meetings, women's retreats... Add this to your list of remedies. I am telling you what was true for ME. I don't speak for AA as a whole, Anti. So, yes, I am stating my truth.
How doe YP meeting give outsiders the impression that they "MIGHT" be handled... They either are or aren't. Which is it? Is there a pamphlet on it you can link me to? I know that Craig was 24, which isn't I guess TOO into adulthood. He had a great Cajun sponsor named George that encouraged him to start it in Akron.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 08:16
I understand what was true for you. Yet you act like any woman can go to a woman's group.
Outsiders assume YP meetings have the same safeguards as Alateen and they do not. Sexual offenders attend YP too. Also I have been told by AA that there is no age restriction in YP. People have told me of seeing people into their 40's at YP meetings. Yet even if a person is only 24, that is too old for a 14 year old to be associating with in AA's current structure. Alateen is for under 18 only. AA should have a similar structure for minors if they want to invite them.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 14:10
ANY woman can start one. Anti, I have made realistic suggestions to you, only to have you always shut them down. How do you think groups get started to begin with? To fill a need.
Mon, 03/19/2012 - 14:15
You said if woman/minors have a problem with safety in meetings they can go to a womens meetings. Yet they are not readily available, also minor males would not go to a women's meeting.
If AA wants minors at meetings then they can create them with safeguards like Alateen.
Tue, 03/20/2012 - 23:18
YPAA is so rouge and unsafe. Its such Bullshit. Have you ever been to an event.
Its a pedophile love fest. The FBI should be doing undercover there.
Wed, 03/21/2012 - 07:28
Yes. That is why we must be sure to yell loudly and clearly that unprotected women and children go to these type of AA functions. What is a warning to you is a feed bel to another, yet you are condemned when you makes such assertions.