Good news about speaking @ Hospitals and Institutions

avogadno's picture
Submitted by avogadno on Thu, 03/08/2012 - 13:01

I have good news.

Since the only requirement alcoholics anonymous is a desire to stop drinking (and the only requirement for narcotics anonymous is a desire to stop using drugs), I've decided to do H&I service work and speak at these institutions to share my experience strength and hope as a recovering person with substantial clean time.

My first speak will be next Thursday evening :=)

There is a women's sober living home in my area and they host daily meetings AA meetings. I've been attending the open meeting for 4 weeks now, mainly to support a friend. Although she has "problems" with the program she does find some of the support helpful. She knows exactly how I feel it and it doesn't pose a problem for either in our friendship. Although I've shared only once at this meeting, I realized that I had sufficient clean time to give a lead at a nearby hospital that has a rehab program. I explained my willingness to the GSR and this got the ball rolling.

I thought that this would be the perfect time to respectively share my feelings about the 12 step model of recovery and explain in detail what works for me. My focus will not be what doesn't work (besides a brief explanation about how I wasted 5 years in XA) but other options that I have found useful.

I'm a bit nervous because I thought I'd be "lying", and I don't want to fuck with people's heads. We all know that AA/NA doesn't give a crap but I didn't find that a good reason to do it myself. I've discussed this with my sober buddy and my husband and found that as long as I speak the truth - "all will be well".
I'm just going to speak my mind and hope that if there are people listening that have the same issues with the program as I do then my speak will be helpful to them.

Comments

Pogue Mahone

Thu, 03/08/2012 - 15:42

Here's another.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMYeld2R-cQ

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Thu, 03/08/2012 - 16:18

Couple things you might mention:

1) Bring up how Bill thought he could talk to dead people and how he claimed Boniface helped him write the 12 & 12.

2) Mention that Bill used LSD and was under the influence of deadly nightshade when he saw God.

3) Mention kindly Dr. Bob modifying a paddle so it would inflict more suffering when he beat his kids.

4) Mention the current controversy over turning Stepping Stones into a national landmark.

5) Mention Helen Wynn.

6) Mention that, on his death bed, Bill threatened to punch out his nurse unless someone brought him whiskey. This was after allegedly 35 years of not drinking.

7) Mention the lawsuits AAWS has filed against foreign groups in Mexico and Germany.

8) Perhaps talk a bit about the Establishment Clause in the First Amendment.

9) Mention early AA suicides like Bill C. and Florence R.

10) Tell them about the Orange Papers.

11) Explain, as JR did, that AA would not even exist if Lois had followed the advice given in Alanon.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

btnben's picture

btnben

Thu, 03/08/2012 - 16:26

I've taken a copy of that. I anticipate it will come in useful at some time. It is in the public domain, isn't it?. Don't want a lawsuit...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Thu, 03/08/2012 - 16:37

Excellent list Penny. While she's at it she should mention that the World Health Organization has deem AA to be completely ineffective. That would make 12 points against them. Ha! The irony of that!

Troll free AA critical forum
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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 13:16

Does the WHO still believe alcoholism is a disease?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

btnben's picture

btnben

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 13:21

They never have Marietta. The closest they've come was the 2004 report where they said alcohol dependence (not the made up "alcoholism") could probably be described as a mental illness. Disease didn't get a mention.

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Thu, 03/08/2012 - 21:03

Good list Penny, I confess that I like it and am going to hang onto it. But....I really can't do those things. Like I said, I kind of wish I could. I imagine that those in treatment need to hear a lot of positive things. I'm certainly not going to advocate AA but I'm not going to initiate the popping of any bubbles either. Well, I'm sure you get it. The likilhood of being asked to speak again would be null, instead of how slim it is already going to be. As for answering questions. I'm not going to lie in my answers. They will get the truth! Do I think it's religious? Yep. Do I think it works? Nope. Etc.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Calinda (not verified)

Thu, 03/08/2012 - 16:23

People here have nothing better to do with their time then threaten to go to AA meetings and talk shit.
I am not a big AA fan either but I wouldn't lie to someone just to protest AA. Just tell the bossman you want to promote a few more programs. What is the big deal?

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Thu, 03/08/2012 - 16:32

AREN"T YOU GLAD I LEARNED THAT. They are from AA's own history books.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 00:34

It's all about self knowledge.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Thu, 03/08/2012 - 16:44

Just tell the bossman you want to promote a few more programs. What is the big deal?

Because Steppers will try to fill the patients' heads with lots of propaganda. After all, AA does not pass itself off as just another program. It's important to counter that propaganda so that future prospects can gain the perspective needed to make an informed decision.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Thu, 03/08/2012 - 16:47

They are terrified of the informed decision because it would deny them prospects. Avo already has expressed how she feels and the GSR is allowing her to speak and I think that's amazing.

Troll free AA critical forum
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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

btnben's picture

btnben

Thu, 03/08/2012 - 16:50

Fruitcake isn't happy with that - there's nothing to get angry about...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Thu, 03/08/2012 - 17:51

What is mind blowing is that you have popped in here (I've never seen you before) and assume I'm threatening to go to AA meetings and assume I'm going to talk shit. Did you even read about where I am going, how I am getting in the door, and what I'm going to say?

I did not tell a single lie to anyone at the AA meeting I did attend. The GSR of the AA meetings knows that I do not work the steps and that I am going to speak about how the steps are not needed in order to succeed.

I am NOT going TO PROMOTE OTHER PROGRAMS. I am going to say that I don't believe that I am powerless and that i acheived sobriety by believing in myself.

Where is the lie? Where is the protest?

If you want to know something ask. Don't presume to know the directive of someone else.

I do hate the organization called AA and I despise Bill Wilson. Just because that is true doesn't mean that I'm going to present my opinions about it. My goal is not to upset people that want to and intend to work the steps. It is my goal to reach out to the people that are scared and confused about admitting powerlessness when they know that it isn't true for them. I will explain how using your own will can be benificial and how good it feels to depend on yourself.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Calinda (not verified)

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 12:58

....

btnben's picture

btnben

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 12:07

"This is a AA meeting."

"a AA"...lol It's Danny "Rain Man" Bennison, that well known savant...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 18:26

Ben, do you know what it was? I didn't get a chance to read it before she/he edited and deleted it. I've heard a couple of people make reference to what was said so it sparked my curiosity.

Anyone else remember?

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

AntiDenial

Thu, 03/08/2012 - 16:51

In defense of avo, what about the fact that AA states take what you want and leave the rest? It sounds like that is what avo is doing and sharing the good and bad. I have yet to read that you have to believe all the 12 steps to do service work, or am I wrong?

Articles of Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Thu, 03/08/2012 - 20:58

I wasn't told that. Not by a long shot. There are requirements to do certain things. I remember being told that in order to sponsor another member you need to have worked the steps. It's another suggestion I think, because I saw many sponsors that didn't complete their stepwork. They rationalized by saying that all they needed was to be ahead of their sponcees. It isn't a requirement for H&I. At least to my knowledge. TY for the support, Anti D.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 07:00

I am not of the opinion that includes stepwork, but she is going on a 12 step call, primarily. I did the steps and enjoyed them and the benefits reaped. I know others that have gone to meetings for years, one guy even SIXTEEN, that had never done the steps. When he did, he regretted not having done it sooner. Some people simply go to AA for fellowship and that's fine, too. They are getting something positive out of it.

But to be going to AA and using one of their service opportunities when you aren't an AA, don't believe in the program, are going to a facility based on the 12 steps ... It's twisted. She's doing 12th step work in a program that didn't work for her. Try pulling this at Betty Ford or Hazelden. Try to do that at Ben's charity as an AA because you believe that your story is more important than what they are learning there because their way didn't work for you. He's already said what would happen to me if I tried that.

I think she needs to go tell group how she plans to utilize their opportunity and then go do it so she can figure out what is wrong with it. Some things yo just have to learn.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

btnben

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 07:06

Read what has been posted and stop distorting it. It will be highlighted every time you do it from now on. Enough is enough.

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

becket's picture

becket

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 10:29

Although "take what you can use and leave the rest" seems to work very well for a selection of contemporary individuals in AA, this suggestion is not to be found in the original program of Alcoholic Anonymous as outlined in the Big Book. Maybe it can be viewed as as evidence of evolution of the program.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 11:56

AA doesn't actually say that. It is borrowed from Alanon. She is doing a 12 step and that is fine.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 17:10

Penny what a masterpiece.....:-) The new steps!!!

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Thu, 03/08/2012 - 17:07

danny, you are so incredibly busted. You always show exactly who you are when you get angry.

Troll free AA critical forum
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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Thu, 03/08/2012 - 17:11

Yeah we know, you said this last week.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

Calinda (not verified)

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 11:59

.....no comment

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Thu, 03/08/2012 - 21:09

You flunked English Comp in high skool didn't ya TRish?

"Who is going to win on any given day is anybodies guess".

Oh well, have a nice day now.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

Calinda (not verified)

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 11:59

.....

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 13:38

you just don't have much to say do ya?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

btnben's picture

btnben

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 13:42

Covering his tracks as usual. He's getting better now he's seen the edit button. His screen used to be covered in Wite-Out (Tipex in the UK...lol)

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

btnben's picture

btnben

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 13:43

..

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 13:49

Duplicate?

I get it. There are currently two danny/tranny/trishindas.

and becket is MArrrietta.

Oh Boy George!

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 11:42

Boy, lots up there. two suicides from people that had left the program and were drinking. A national monument that gets something like 3k visitors a year. My father had a paddle, too, and holes were drilled into it to make it sting more. He never used it, and he was also not a drunk. Discipline measures have changed alot over decades of time. Why would AA have not existed if Lois had followed her own program? I don't get that. She was crazy in love with Bill and never would have divorced him for any reason. But if you are choosing to stay with your alcoholic, programs such as Alanon and CRAFT are great. Dr. Bob was eternally grateful for his wife Anne. Not so sure about Bill.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

jonnijoy's picture

jonnijoy

Thu, 03/08/2012 - 17:57

Go for it Avo! Many times towards the end of my time in AA I wanted to say what I thought about some of the aspects of the program. I didnt do it though because I didnt want to embarrass myself. I kinda know how my message would have been received. Try to remember though that it is working (the placebo effect) very well for some of them. You seem to be a very well spoken person and im sure your not out to mess with people. As long as your sincere about your belief and at least say that AA is a good fit for some, it cant be a bad thing. Let them make up their own mind. I gotta say though "good luck with that."

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Thu, 03/08/2012 - 20:54

TY Jonni :=)

I'm not going to bash AA although in some ways I'm tempted. I realize that at the very least, some THINK that it is working for them. That being the case, it could hurt them to hear negatives about what they are doing. I don't want to hurt anyone or upset them. Maybe they aren't ready to hear it. Maybe they would relapse. I don't know. My goal is not to pull people that are happy out. It's only to speak about what helped me and for those that believe in the same things. I don't plan on spending a lot of time talking about how my step work was awful, but how good it feels to stand on my own two feet and congratulate myself on my accomplishments. When it comes down to it, I don't neeeeeeed anyone or anything else, I just do it. I agree on letting them make up their own minds. Thanks again for your support!

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 07:10

Good luck to you, Avo. You are trying to think for them, which is one thing you hated about AA. Who are you to decide for them that what they THINK isn't real for them? At this stage in their sobriety, what yo want to do is wrong. It's almost as if you want them to relapse so that they can blame AA.

My sponsor worked with this. A client's wife was in an expensive rehab based on the 12 steps. Some angry person came in and said basically what you said. That the steps didn't work for her so why were they bothering? His client's wife was there voluntarily and she left the next day because said what she needed to hear. Someone said it didn't work for her, so why should she be there? She's now tried everything and isn't sober yet, and the husband left her. "Maybe they would relapse..." Why would you do anything that could help that?

I was first on board with you until I read more about what just sounds like a mission, not a message. I wouldn't want the responsibility. You go do what you are bent on doing, but there are more productive ways to spread your goodwill message.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

btnben

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 07:17

.... don't let it affect you. You are 100% right. Clara is 100% wrong. Typical AA - thinks drunks are too stupid to hear about options and make up their own minds. It's a bloody disgrace the way AA looks down on people with a drink problem. And then they wonder why more AAs relapse than people who have had no help at all.

Go knock 'em dead girl...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 07:55

Yet you've said that an AA couldn't come to your charity with the same message of options.

I think she should do it, too.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

btnben

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 07:57

JUST READ WILL YOU!!!!

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 11:24

No, why don't you tell me? Why don't you repeat again that you got involved on the condition that AA NOT be part of it, and that you had gone to a SMART meeting? Yet that is just one way to get sober. If you think the action we are talking about is proper and just, then it should be for the charity you worked with as options are just that - options. Anyone coming with a story as to how they got sober should be welcome, AA or no.

Do you understand now?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

btnben

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 11:40

"1. It is not "my charity" - I just do some voluntary work there. I have no say in their decision making.
2. The charity have worked with people with substance abuse problems for many years and have a lot of experience with self-help groups and treatment centres.
3. Through their own experience, real monitored data, not anecdotes, they have the proof that neither AA nor treatment centres work.
4. Subsequently, they will not have anything to do with either of them.

There's is not an uninformed, biased decision. They have many, many years more experience than you do Clara. Also they have the ability to analyse real data without prior bias. They are the ones who have no contempt prior to investigation - shame you can't say the same thing.

This has been clear all along and you have, more than once, tried to knowingly twist the facts to suit your case. Don't - it's dishonest."

You see Clara, I didn't tell them AA was useless, they already knew from their own experience (30+ years). I said all that in the post where I explained how I became involved with them. You have a real problem Clara. You can't seem to listen to anyone else, you just make up what you want to hear.

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 12:16

As usual ben is speaking through his other orifice. If you walked into this charity and offered money you could probably do a strip tease and they wouldn't care....lol. Not that I would suggest that of course.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 12:25

You said that you wouldn't do it if it had anything to do with AA and they had already decided not to include AA. That gives lie to this post. Since it didn't work for them, it must not work for anyone else is a general feeling among people that leave AA. The charity had nothing that said that SMART works. They are still working on a study.

What was your response to alcoholism being a disability? I posted information on it. What about Bill's belief that alcoholics are not like other people, and now we have evidence supporting that our brains are in fact different than those of non or social drinkers? Cause laughed when I said that. I find it surprising what you pick out to focus on for a day.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 13:25

"Through their own experience, real monitored data, not anecdotes, they have the proof that neither AA nor treatment centres work."

Please disclose where this "real monitored data, not anecdotes", this "proof" can be found. If it is not online then provide the name of the charity so I can inquire by email or letter as to how I can procure copies of their "proof".

Your "saying so" does not make it so. If you're going to backhand AA and treatment centers in writing, on behalf of a British charity, no less, you should have the proof to back up your/their allegation. Documentation, please.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

btnben's picture

btnben

Sat, 03/10/2012 - 13:31

Give me an address and I'll post it to you...lol.

This charity has to tender for different contracts to fund the support they give. There are many different areas (Rough sleepers, Asylum seekers, Probationers etc). These contracts ALWAYS, as you would expect, contain very rigorous confidentiality clauses. They are not allowed to put information online, just as your doctor isn't. Additionally, it's not really of general interest.

Their decision not to promote AA or treatment centres is based on their experience. They were not asked to monitor it. Call it a side effect if you will.

Enough for you Marietta, or are you going to bleat some more?...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 12:11

ben no one has a problem with her speaking to people who may go to AA. Who cares really. We as AA members have expressed problems with her manipulating a new comer to get into the meeting and then lying to the GSR that she doesn't know at all to put herself in a position to lead the meeting.
No ben Avocadno is not 100% right. She is a 100% immoral.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 12:25

There are other ways for her to accomplish the same thing that would be more proper.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 00:50

Usually these events are sort of a Marvel Team Up, minimum two people (one long term and one short term sobriety). You'll do fine sharing your experiences. If there is a Question and Answer session at the end, then that'll be the tricky part. Lot's of possible off the wall questions. It's okay to say, "I don't know the answer to that question" and pass it on to the other person.

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 03/09/2012 - 07:17

I am sure that the other member is going to be the short termer and Avo will be the senior! This will be interesting.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

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