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Proposed Question: Why do NONE of the 12-Steps even MENTION the word "sobriety"?
Sun, 07/31/2011 - 19:14
If alcoholism isn't a moral shortcoming, but instead a disease, then why are we making a moral inventory, confessing our sins, and asking God for their removal?
Sun, 07/31/2011 - 19:31
That's the "spirit"! ;) Are you also proposing the "new" pamphlet with these "revised" questions be called, "Shut Up Newcomer!"? LOL!
Mon, 08/01/2011 - 07:01
The reason the 12 steps do not mention "sobriety" is clear. They are not about "sobriety". They are means to indoctrinate (brainwash) new members "into the cult of AA". AA is not about "sobriety" (not drinking). AA is about AA and preserving and expanding the cult of AA. The purpose of AA is to protect and grow itself. It has nothing to do with alcoholism, drinking, sobriety, or recovery. AA is a fundamemtalist religion that preys on vulnerable people that have problems with alcohol. Nothing more, nothing less.
Mon, 08/01/2011 - 07:58
"You think too much!"
"I can't help it. Is there anything I can do about it? Is there an alternative to thinking?"
"But I don't believe in god. Who can I pray to?"
"A doorknob, your cat, anything."
"I'll have to think about it."
I guess I would rather be too-smart-for-my-own-good than too-stupid-for-my-own-good.
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean someone isn't out to get you.
Mon, 08/01/2011 - 08:57
I got told I was "too smart for us", while being "let go" at a residential rehab. My parting comment was, "I didn't realize that stupidity was a job requirement!" They didn't like that. They probably also didn't like the fact that I got over $2800.00 from them for not paying overtime, or giving wages earned at time of discharge.
Mon, 08/01/2011 - 08:22
I prayed to my "higher power" and he/she/it told me to knock it off because there is no such thing as "higher powers". I now found myself with a conundrum of massive proportions. There was no way out and I knew it. Thank "god" for my local AA "Group Of Drunks" who suggested "Good Orderly Direction". All's well that ends well.
Mon, 08/01/2011 - 09:23
Moderator: Do any of you new people have any questions?
New Guy: Yeah, why are there Twelve of everything? Is there some significance to the number 12?
Moderator: That's a stupid question! What difference does it make?
New Guy: I dunno, I just thought this might be some kind of Sumerian cult or something.
Moderator: Are you a wise guy, or what?
New Guy: It's okay. At the beginning of the meeting I asked Baal to give me the wisdom to know the difference.
Mon, 08/01/2011 - 11:04
How often ARE these "question sessions" allowed? I would love to attend one (as much as I hate A.A.!), and ask A LOT of questions. . . . from, "Do you have the desire to stop drinking because you are drinking NOW"? to "Do the 12-Steps mean what they say, or say what they mean?"
I suspect it will be a short "Q & A" session!
Tue, 08/02/2011 - 07:24
the significance of the number 12 comes from lots of sources ie 12 disciples 12 old time prophets 12 months of the year 12 days of christmas etc hope that answers your question
Tue, 08/02/2011 - 08:14
I think I do recall reading somewhere that Bill Wilson wanted 12 steps based on their being 12 disciples, the Oxford Group movement from who's 6 "principles" he was plagarizing claimed to be a return to 1st Century Christianity.
"They are not at fault, they seem to have been brainwashed that way."
Wed, 08/03/2011 - 02:10
Likewise, Dennis. If you read them properly, there are 14 steps - the first and last of them have and in the middle!
It reminds me of what someone said to me at the coffee bar before a meeting, years ago: "You won't get it, you're an intellectual."
Tue, 08/02/2011 - 08:23
I guess I should have stipulated "What is the significance of the number twelve as it applies to a program of sobriety?"
Why not seven? As in, the number of innings in a girl's softball game, the Mick's uniform number, seas, wonders of the world, etc.
It seems to me that a few of the Steps (and Traditions) are fillers.
Tue, 08/02/2011 - 08:46
"A FEW of the steps (and Traditions) are fillers"??? That is the understatement of the month. The whole ball of wax is just a "filler". Filled with BS. The sound and the fury signifying nothing.
Tue, 08/02/2011 - 14:33
To: captain britain for solving the Mystery of the Twelve Steps. You certainly have a flair for the obvious.
To: Dennis M. for a plausible explanation. Why didn't any of the AA gurus in the room when I asked that question, most of whom could have quoted verbatim everything Bill Wilson ever wrote (or plagiarized), give me a straight answer?
And To: Flannigan, most of all, for the coveted Understatement of the Month Award.
Wed, 08/03/2011 - 00:14
without 12 there would be no 13 and then you couldn't have what aa really is: 13th stepping predatory cultist preying on weak and drunk subjects...
Wed, 08/03/2011 - 00:18
Weren't there 6 original steps with the Oxford group? Bill W., with his hallucinatory narcissism, saw fit to embellish the God heavy, draconian, hellfire and damnation steps with his own mindless babble and arrived at 12, or maybe there were really 18 and he dropped a tablet Mel Brooks style from History of the World? What a scene: drunk piece of shit stumbles out of a bar, hiccups, "I hold in my hand these 18 (drops a napkin down a drain), Shit, 12 steps to, hiccup, sobriety...God just visited me in the men's room while I was blowing Dr. Bob..."
Wed, 08/03/2011 - 07:26
"The elevator is broken, take the steps". That always cracked me up. So pithy.
Wed, 08/03/2011 - 07:35
That's funny, I never noticed you had a lithp.
Wed, 08/03/2011 - 07:55
A while back, a young man came up to me prior to a meeting, extended his hand, and said "Hi, I'm Thad."
I replied "I'm thorry to hear that, but you've come to the right plathe."
I never saw him at a meeting again, and I can only hope it was because of me. I'd like to think that I accomplished one good thing in AA.
Wed, 08/03/2011 - 14:03
If "take the steps" is their "sloganeered" response for "going up", tell them you want to GO UP TO SOBRIETY, not DOWN TO BEING A PATHETIC 12-STEP BELIEVER! ;)
Thu, 08/04/2011 - 05:22
If you have to be an Alcoholic to Understand Alcoholism, why to people expect the "We Agnostics" to be followed. Bill Wilson found God, he was not an atheist. He has no basis for writing from an atheist point of view. Use their own logic against them, the "We Agnostics" chapter was not written by an atheist and has no validity because of that.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Thu, 08/04/2011 - 07:43
Whoever wrote "We Agnostics", probably Bill, erected a strawman and then disassembled it. It is hard to believe anyone could fall for this illogical tripe, but obviously thousands, if not millions, have. Didn't anyone, besides wet brained sots, edit that book?
That said, why "Use their own logic against them," when there is no logic there? The proposition "You have to be an alcoholic to understand alcoholism" is an unfounded, unprovable assumption, based on a drunk's definition of what the terms "alcoholic" and "alcoholism" mean.
The proposition that the "We Agnostics" chapter has no validity because it wasn't written by an atheist is just as illogical and fallacious.
It has no validity because it was written by a fucking idiot.
Thu, 08/04/2011 - 12:21
As Orange has pointed out on his "OP" site, Wilson was not only a "fucking idiot", but a narcissist, a philanderer, and a con-man, as well. I am sure there are other multiple adjectives that "Bill W." can be described with. The one that Time magazine called him in 2000 is NOT one of them!
Thu, 08/04/2011 - 12:15
Thank you, JR! As an atheist, I 'cerely thank you for pointing out the FALLACY of another one of the "big" Book's BULLSHIT chapters! I will remember to use that the next time I am in an argument with one of the 12-Step adherents in my drug and alcohol groups! :)
Thu, 08/04/2011 - 07:08
Bill Wilson was also not a wife of an alcoholic. That didn't stop him from writing the chapter "To Wives" as if he were. The whole of the "Big Book" has no validity. What qualifications did Wilson et al have? They abused alcohol? They were spiritual? They held seances and played with ouija boards? Talked to dead people? "God" talked to them? And on and on. The whole deal is a scam- the sound and the fury signifying nothing.
Thu, 08/04/2011 - 12:18
Whatever happened to the proposed QUESTIONS I created this thread for? Questions like:
Can a person be in a 12-Step group once they have STOPPED USE of the addictive substance, since its the "desire to stop" (a futuristic position, not the CURRENT ACTIVITY of BEING STOPPED!), that 12-Step group membership is based in?
Thu, 08/04/2011 - 12:41
RE: Can you be in a 12-Step group after you have quit drinking?
Obviously not. I do not qualify as having a desire to quit drinking. I can't, because I quit 10 years ago. I have a desire to continue my abstinence, but I have no desire to quit drinking. That train left the station long ago. So I am not qualified to be an A.A. member, because I don't have a desire to quit drinking.
Neither is any other A.A. member with years of sobriety.
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
Fri, 08/05/2011 - 10:44
Answers I received from other members when I made exactly that point included "more will be revealed" and "don't be such a smart aleck".
Sun, 08/07/2011 - 11:42
If that isn't "cult-speak", then I don't know what is! You'd get more information from the Scientologists by comparison! Or maybe they mean the "morerevealed.com" web-site, where there is a lot of good information on the TRUE NATURE of A.A., including the JAMA review of the "Big Book" in October, 1939!
Fri, 08/05/2011 - 13:08
Isn't that such a deep, satisfying answer? "Don't be such a smart aleck".
That answers everything.
Fri, 08/05/2011 - 14:20
they've got no answers because free will and thought are arrested once you start reading the laminated propaganda. there has to be a huge cognitive dissonance within some of these folks. those who recognize it leave the cult, those who choose to stifle it say things like, "don't be a smart aleck..."
Fri, 08/05/2011 - 14:23
Bill's narcissism trumped all his other character flaws. His alcoholism was minor compared to his incredible ego. To think he was qualified to write ANYTHING resembling treatment or advice is laughable were it not for the fact so many have bought into it. I saw Apollo 13, I guess I'm an astronaut now, huh? Geeeeezzzzz.....
Sat, 05/05/2012 - 15:50
should the pen be in a glass case