The Pagan 12 Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous breaking the Ten Commandments

JR Harris's picture
Submitted by JR Harris on Fri, 03/02/2012 - 08:01

It is not hard to realize that Alcoholics Anonymous is a pagan religion that goes against many of the basic foundations of Christian, Muslim and Jewish religions who all had their beginnings with the Ten Commandments. Many of the basic Ten Commandments were routinely broken by the co-founder of AA, Bill Wilson in his personal life, such as the 7th Commandment "Thou shalt not commit adultery" which he did numerous times and the 9th Commandment "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house" when he conned the widow Helen Griffith out of Stepping Stones. We must look further than that and inform people that the 12 Steps are a Pagan religion that breaks the following Ten Commandments.

Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me

Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's

May God have mercy on the Pagans who are adulterating his words and going out in search of "prospects" to convert to the heathen religion of Alcoholics Anonymous.

Comments

AntiDenial

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 16:07

AA has set the standard for being stagnant, deceitful organization. SMART sets the standard for being progressive and no voodoo religion.

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btnben

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 16:12

But I'm fed up with the condescending bitch. Just going to fucking ignore her...lol

AA set the standard in what? Read those 2 pdf files about the maths of AA membership. AA is worse than doing nothing. Clearly proven using AA's own data. AA's success rate is below the natural spontaneous remission rate for alcohol abuse (not counting sexual abuse, financial abuse, mental abuse). AA does not work QED.

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 16:21

To be fair, none of the stats are very favorable. I can't even find any on SMART although they boast a high rate of getting people into recovery. So what? Getting into is just the start. Even at 5%, AA has produced 100% for my husband and me. As for the other abuses, AA would have nothing to do with those. You'd have to go to SMART, which touts itself as a cure all for everything.

Thank you for directing me to it. I've enjoyed getting the information and seeing how much of it we utilize in AA. Of course, some of it is just silly, but I feel that way about some of AA's stuff, too.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

AntiDenial

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 16:24

Well if I am not alone in that endeavor I am willing to give it a shot...again. Anyone who shows such a cold heart about suicides and childen is on my sh&! list.

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becket

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 16:32

We all have a shit list. Here's a peek at mine:

Anyone who interferes with the decision-making rights of another human being - this goes for everything from suicide to procuring an abortion to what to eat for dinner. You get in the way of another's right to choose and you are on my shit list.

Anyone who believes that "children" (I am, unfortunately, having to assume that you mean adolescents with substance abuse problems) deserve more respect and more protection and more support than the average drunk or druggie - you, too, are on my shit list. Many of these "children" are so jaded in their worldviews that they would have no problem ripping you off or cutting you to get what they want. Don't deny it. I've been in several meetings in Hollywood and Toluca Lake. Bitter 16-year-olds who can't remember when or where they gave away their virginity? Look no further. You support them more than you support any "child" of mine who has issues and you are forever on my shit list.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

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Clara

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 16:33

It's because I don't believe you. There aren't AA suicides and I have no experience with anything you describe about children because we don't have an Alateen program (which is not AA). You just frenzy yourself into a lather over things that really don't make sense.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 16:53

You were gleeful in suicides you tried to lay at AA's doors. In every example, the person had returned to drinking and had left the program. I feel badly that anyone would believe such a permanent solution was necessary to what was probably a temporary problem, but there just isn't any such thing as an AA suicide or fatality or murder, or any of the other stuff you just threw out for effect.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 17:00

Yeah, since you would just say that committing suicide/murder/getting drunk constitutes leaving the program. Likewise, no one has failed under my program. I have two simple rules: 1) eat a bowl of ramen noodles a day and 2) don't drink. If you violate either of those two rules, you have violated the program. So far, no one who has thoroughly followed that path has gotten drunk. Now where's my royalties, countryside mansion, and hot mistress?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

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Clara

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 17:21

Sorry, if someone has left he program and taken up drinking again, it doesn't matter if they commited suicide or won the lottery. Would that then be an AA lottery winner?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

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Pennywise

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 17:29

If you define leaving the program in such a way that drinking again constitutes leaving the program, then of course 100% of the people who remain in the program will be sober. But that wouldn't be saying very much.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 17:44

I don't think labeling the behavior of someone no longer affiliated with the program to be legitimate or even fair.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

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Pennywise

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 17:51

What labeling?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 17:56

the suicide examples given...

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

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becket

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 17:37

You're so smart, I'd think you could afford a steak once in a while :)

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 17:39

Actually, you were the one laughing about these suicides, not us. And what do you mean "In every example, the person had returned to drinking and had left the program"? This is simply your unfounded assumption. There have been plenty of suicides of people who have remained sober and stayed in the program. And do you deny that when sponsors tell their pigeons to stop taking their meds that this is not an AA suicide? Oh wait. Of course you do.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

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becket

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 17:45

Where in any post by Clara did you find btnben's favorite - LOL - in regard to anyone's suicide? Where did she mock anyone or set up a troubled person as the butt of a joke here?

No one on this forum has been to every meeting in this country with regularity. You whine about an AA saying "That's not AA" and you think they're stupid if they don't believe you; but I can say the kinds of shenanigans that you and others describe here NEVER, EVER took place at any meeting I ever went to, and I criss-crossed the country attending. I have never read or heard of such bullshit in my life. It may or may not be true, but you cannot hold the ignorant accountable for not having experienced the things that you have experienced.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

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Clara

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 17:55

Apparently they wouldn't get away with it in SMART, either, as the harassment policy is stated in the facilitator workbook. But who people are in the rooms can differ greatly once outside. I consider it a measure of sobriety. Others can see it how they choose...

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 18:08

Actually, Clara, you're the one here to harass. It's your sole purpose here.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 18:25

You are wrong. It has been hugely informative to me. I have not been rude to you or anyone else. I haven't focused on one person and tried to make it all about them from typos, to how often they post, to the relationship with program or spouse... Initially it was just because you (et al) thought I was someone else that had been banned and that you didn't like. But even Ben admitted that he missed her. I disclosed a lot of information about myself that I do not regret, and I have honestly given my opinions and the basis for them. That wasn't Orange coming to smack down Clara. In fact, I went back on my posts to see what one you could have been alluding to when you claimed I had played the anger card against one of the nicest people you know. I can't find it. I haven't dissolved into petulance and profanity. I would never had presumed to have been able to control the moods of others so much.

You would treat anyone the same way that disagrees with your stance on AA, yet the forum welcome opinions and they can differ. That's why I am here.

I've learned a great deal about AA here that I never knew before as my sponsor doesn't go into decades of history. His job was to take me through the steps and he did it. I've learned about some alternative programs that seem to have some merit but some equally BS things. I am very much looking forward to getting the book that the good looker wrote that Ben seems to think beats up on AA. I learn something each day here. And that is fine!

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

AntiDenial

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 19:33

Reread all of her posts on the topic of suicides and AA. About as cold as you can get. No concern for minors and no concern for the dearly departed at the hands of bad advice from ignorant AA sponsors telling them they should go off their meds. We have her number.

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Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 17:53

It isn't, and I did laugh at the attempts to blame AA for absolutely everything. The suicides given, Florence R. and Bill C., were two people that had left the fellowship, gone back to drinking and they apparently killed themselves. Bill C was living in Bill W. home and had been selling their things to support his gambling and drink habits. I don't just don't see how you can pin on that on AA. Again, if they'd won the lottery after they left the fellwoship, would they be AA lotto winners? No, they'd be people that won a prize.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 17:56

As I said a few days ago, I don't pin their suicides on AA, either.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 18:03

The difference is that playing the lottery has nothing to do with being in the program, whereas drinking does. So anyone who drinks has failed to follow the program, whereas playing the lottery makes no difference either way. You're just using definitions to cull the herd so you can claim 100% success.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 18:06

If you are in recovery and are drinking or using, yes, there is something wrong with your program, IMO. But these people weren't even involved with AA when they commited suicide. Forence R. had left more than a year earlier. Even though Bill C. actually living with Bill and Lois, he had left and they were allegedly trying to "reach" him again. Still, it just isn't an AA suicide. I imagine if you look, you could find any number of people that had been in rehabs and even SMART that felt suicide was their only answer. And it would be a shame.

And i wouldn't claim 100% success for any rehab or recovery program. It isn't true. However, AA has worked 100% for me. Both my husband and I put down our drinks and haven't picked up again. We want that to continue.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 18:07

I agree insofar as there are probably suicidal people in SMART and other AA alternatives. Of course I've never been to SMART, but that would be my guess.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

AntiDenial

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 21:19

The difference is how suicidal persons are dealt with. In SMART it would be handled professionally.
This is something AA would know nothing about as they are so very proud at being forever unprofessional.
AA has no training on dealing with mental health issues or suicidal persons. In fact instead of helping they help push people right over the edge many times.

Our government has no business sending mentally ill people to AA, and AA has no business acting like they know how to handle them and actively encourage their arrival at meetings. Just to tell them to stop taking meds or going to their therapist.

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Pennywise

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 19:44

Clara: Are you willing to agree that there are some suicides in AA? You can agree to that without having to agree that AA is responsible.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 16:34

You get fed up only when you run out of argument.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 16:27

Sure. You can name your enemy, treat it like a person (or a voice in your head rather) and use "powerful statements" like, "you bad boy!" If it were a child, it would laugh at you.

So what is the difference? You can name your alter ego and cuss it outhat sounds sane and reasonable to you. I can have a higher power and pray to it for support (or not!), and that offends some.

Why not just agree that NONE of these things would be for everyone? They will work for some, not for others, and it wouldn't matter if it was the most expensive rehab in the world - or a profound saying in a fortune cookie that might slap some sense into someone... and they walk away from booze or drugs forever.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 17:12

That makes good sense, Clara.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 15:58

Orange is a great source for making something out of nothing.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

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jonnijoy

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 19:07

Pague mahone says: its easy to get a library card from a friend or on the street lol
Jcal says: Im gonna have to call my bullshit card on that one PM. IDK how things work in Chicago but in NY THEY SCAN YOUR CARD AND SEE WHAT YOU LOOK LIKE. It takes a permanent address in in the library area (usually obtained by showing them a utility bill or something that shows you really live there.) If you were really a low bottom user like you are suggesting you are, you would know these things. Do you think many lowbottoms have photo IDs, birth certificates, social security cards? And as far as getting them off the street, what if that person doesnt know how to find a counterfeiter? what if they dont live in the city? Have no car? No friends? Also, I NEVER said AA is the only way. I said that IMO it is a better fit for the low bottom off the street. The smart meeting I attended had 8 people (all 8 of them) sat in a circle and were clean cut and nicely dressed. I couldnt even imagine coming in shakin n bakin and having to sit in that circle, face to face with everybody. In case you didnt realize, i am not pro-AA but im not pro any program, one size does not fit all, so I think AA serves a purpose for people that like it.

Pogue Mahone

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 20:25

When I got my library card I needed a state ID and a utility bill which I had because i just got my housing after a 3 years wait. Now I have my own laptop because I found work. As far as the library here goes you can scan your own card or your friends. Yes i understand the problems of no ID could cause a person and I don't think the counterfeit route would be the one I would take if in that situation. I could never do a meeting while shakin & bakin but I could do the ER and a jab of Ativan. Yes I see it would be unlikely for some to go to online meetings but it's there if they wanted to here in Chicago. Many homeless here spend there time at the library. When I became homeless I became sober and found the right services to get by on. Most do the same here but they blow their resources on their addictions.

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Trisha K.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 22:49

MY god, the lengths some of you will go just to be right.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

Pogue Mahone

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 20:37

One more thing....Would you like to know how many times I crapped my pants while drinking..ya know to prove that I'm a "Real Alkie" and not just imposter? Those who have eatin from the dumpster are not really impressed with stories about those who have eatin from dumpsters.

AntiDenial

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 21:14

That is sad that there seems to be some form of initiation into AA tp prove you are the real McCoy.
An addict one could be proud of. I guess that's why there is so much of bragging about ones horror stories.

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AntiDenial

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 19:24

Maybe the low bottoms would be uplifted by a higher end addict. Maybe they would even clean up abit for a SMART meeting and feel better about themselves. I think it is pretty discriminating to deny hardcore addicts what SMART has to offer. Which they would have a better chance of recovering vs being in a 12 step program based on Bill W. outdated propaganda.

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Pogue Mahone

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 20:50

What helped a lot for me was being around people who were not in recovery and living normal healthy lives. By the time I started making it to Smart meetings I had already found that I had moved on and over the addiction hump to some degree. I feel like addiction groups might cause me to feel I'm still living in the past in some way.

AntiDenial

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 21:07

I couldnt agree with you more. In fact Jack Trimpey speaks of this. Not relying on meetings but yourself.
Also to focus on your family.Instead of being at meetings every day, away from your family and children, he encourages you to start spending time with your loved ones. That is really getting back to living. Not creating a new family in AA where they discourage you from many family gatherings. Many people have blamed AA for their divorce, because if the spouse was not in AA then they were not part of the cult.

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Pogue Mahone

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 21:12

Yeah before I relapsed I had 13 years and 11 years sober without recovery groups and would go months without even thinking of my past drinking life. It was a good way to be really and hope to feel like that again someday. I don't have anything left from my past drinking life as I burnt every bridge so I literally had to start all over again it it was the best thing for me.

AntiDenial

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 21:17

That is true for many. People have burnt all their bridges. But if one does not have family, starting fresh with healthy individuals is a good start. Not feel that your only friends have to be from 12 step or SMART.

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AntiDenial

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 21:06

I cant think of anything more depressing than to stand up and say that you are an alcoholic for the rest of your life for a lifetime of meetings,and to continue to repeat your story. This is called living in the past.

What gets me is people who might of totally screwed up their lives for awhile and quit drugs, act like they are better than those that never went down that road. A real air of superiority. They feel they should get special treatment.

It is much healthier to get on with your life and look forward, and stop looking backward. If you dont drink or do drugs anymore, in my opinion you are no longer an addict.

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Pogue Mahone

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 22:00

And I seen so much of that sober elite stuff going on at step meetings and the one thing I felt at the shelters was some equality. No one really cared what support group one went to or if they went at all. We all signed each others meeting sheets Lol and everyone was in the same boat. The blowhard know it all's that did come in from time to time got ignored really quick. I was lucky that the last shelter I stayed at was run by non addicts who were not breathing down my neck about "recovery." I did get stuck with a 12 step intern case worker who tried to kick me out because I eventually spoke up about my dislike for stepism. It's to bad though because many places still require 12 step attendance. Before I left they were starting to discuss other options other then a/a and n/a so they are now more open minded to these other groups. Some of us started talking and speaking out about it and they started to take action..I think they always knew that some aspects of 12 steps were a bit funky to say the least.

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