I thought I'd start discussions on this "chapter" of the Orange Papers. Since we've been disussing different aspects of this recently I won't go in order that Orange has them listed.
"A.A. flat-out lies when it says it is a program of rigorous honesty; it is just the opposite — a program of rigorous dishonesty":
http://orange-papers.org/orange-secrets.html
If you read all of my posts in this forum you will know that my worst grievance about AA is that they LIE to get members and to keep them. I don't care if AA is religious, I care that they LIE and say that they are NOT religious. I could care less that AA is a program to help people get closer to their higher power, but I do care a lot that they LIE and claim that it is a program about getting sober. It is clearly not. And I don't care if AA is a failure or not. I care that AA LIES, claiming to have saved millions and that it is the only, or the best way to get sober.
Finding out that I had been deceived by Alcoholics Anonymous and that they "fake" practically everything about their organization by way of greed and for power, was a big moment for me. I was finally able to start living without the mess of confusion that had been circling throughout my brain for 5 years.
Comments
Clara
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 14:43
Permalink
It would appear that he's
It would appear that he's already supported the disease notion as well as personality traits. It will be an interesting read.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 14:21
Permalink
Ben, how could you possibly
Ben, how could you possibly even suggest that someone else controls your moods? I thought the board mantra was that pissing off AAs was a good thing, therefore pissing someone off is neither bad form nor is it even unusual.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
btnben
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:01
Permalink
Avo - you say.....
"Because they LIE about their success rate, membership rate, history, religious status, and much more. They also flat out IGNORE claims of several forms of abuse that occurs in and around the AA community and do absolutely NOTHING to help prevent it. They DON'T CARE who gets hurt as long AA continues to make money."
What's wrong with that? How else can you retire early and do what you want for the rest of your life - choose the Bill W religion, you won't get rich, but he will...lol
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
Trisha K.
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:16
Permalink
Do you have an single piece of evidence to support?
Please substantiate these claims.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine
avogadno
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:35
Permalink
Evidence for Trisha
Yes I do actually. You were the very first person to comment on this blog and said that it was a ridiculous comment. I invited you back to discuss the religious aspects of AA and how they do LIE, specifically saying that they are not religious even though two courts in the U.S. declared that it was. At that point you ran off to nit pick the character of other people in this forum.
BTW, I normally ignore you because I have a tendency to stay away from trolls that my peers have warned me about. I'll only tolerate a small portion of your slam and then move on myself.
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
Trisha K.
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:40
Permalink
Whaaaat???
My gosh, the paranoia is infectious. Avogado do yourself a favor and don't bother conversing with people who don't share your opinions. You are not doing us any favors.
Bye!
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine
avogadno
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 14:20
Permalink
Again and again, Miss Trish.
Again and again, Miss Trish. You avoid any discussion about facts, and call them opinions. Clever, but plainly obvious that you’re a pro at avoidance. Try to admit that you can't refute this obvious truth. It's an obvious personality trait of yours and I believe it is also a character flaw that you and other over zealous AA's share. You can't handle seeing the truth about AA because then you would have to change your entire life and be honest. Oh no! Scary thought right? You would also lose any credibility that the few of your fellows off you. I imagine that you are scared to have nothing but your shameful past defining you. Cheer up though, you have the ability to change.
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
Trisha K.
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:45
Permalink
I like this definition I read on JREFS.
"AA is as religious as one wants to make it." I read this on JREFS.
As far as the 9th circuit judgment, AA is religious. I guess no one took it seriously in the US because people are still mandated to AA, in every state.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine
causeandeffect
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:48
Permalink
LOL!!! And Clara is trying to
LOL!!! And Clara is trying to say it isn't! You guys don't even have each other's backs, do you?
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
Trisha K.
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:54
Permalink
No, C&E, Clara and I won't compromise what we believe in.
This isn't about having people backs, C&E. It is about telling the truth and being who you are. Clara demonstrates that with dignity. I have always believed that integrity was something to value.
Being on this site is not a popularity contest, compromising what one believes to be liked by others.
We are adults.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine
btnben
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:56
Permalink
Funny thing is.....
.....I'm not seeing Clara rushing to ally herself with you. Just put down as yet another imaginary friend...lol
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
Trisha K.
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 13:00
Permalink
You really don't have a clue...LMAO!!!
You can always ask her?
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine
JR Harris
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 13:02
Permalink
Danny, you're a known sociopath
Just ask Google!
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Clara
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 13:02
Permalink
Let me see if I get this...
Let me see if I get this... Because you are anti-AA, everyone of the board has to have each other's back? What if they don't always agree with them? OOHHH, they just don't say so then, huh? I am my own woman and I have my own opinions and epxeriences. I leave others to theirs.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
JR Harris
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 13:07
Permalink
I'm not exactly anti-AA, I just hate cults
The AA you are personifying is a cult, plain and simple.
If telemarketers just get your voice mail or answering machine the event is logged into what is called a "predictive dialer" and they callback at times that you are most likely to answer. Usually around lunch and dinner time.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
becket
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 13:02
Permalink
Admiration need not be mutual
Admiration need not be mutual to be legitimate.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
causeandeffect
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 13:02
Permalink
Then one of you is lying.
Then one of you is lying. Clara says people aren't mandated to AA. You said they were in every state. One of you is lying. Which one?
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
becket
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 13:03
Permalink
Could it be that one or both
Could it be that one or both are simply mistaken?
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
Clara
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 13:05
Permalink
Who has to be lying at all?
Who has to be lying at all? I am trying to find any state where people are mandated to AA and it says so in specific language that anyone can read. I don't find it. I do know peope that have come to AA with those papers to be signed, but I don't know if the Court said, "You have to go to AA." They may have made the choice out of any number of alternatives for themselves. I think my sponsor said it best to me.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
btnben
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 13:08
Permalink
FFS!!!!!!!!!!!!
If two people say the opposite thing, one must be lying. They may not be doing it intentionally, but one of the statements MUST be untrue, ie a lie.
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
Pennywise
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 14:10
Permalink
If two people say the
If two people say the opposite thing, one must be lying. They may not be doing it intentionally, but one of the statements MUST be untrue, ie a lie.
Technically that is not true. One cannot lie unintentionally. For a false statement to qualify as a lie, the person making the statement must be aware of its falsity. In short, a false statement is not necessarily a lie.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
btnben
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 14:13
Permalink
Maybe legally
But if you ask 100 people what the opposite to a lie is, how many do you think would say the truth? Language is about conveying meaning. Interpretation is often necessary, but the majority is usually the accepted.
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
Pennywise
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 14:26
Permalink
Well, below is the dictionary
Well, below is the dictionary definition. As you can see, most definitions entail knowledge and intent:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lie
noun
1.
a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.
2.
something intended or serving to convey a false impression; imposture: His flashy car was a lie that deceived no one.
3.
an inaccurate or false statement.
4.
the charge or accusation of lying: He flung the lie back at his accusers.
verb (used without object)
5.
to speak falsely or utter untruth knowingly, as with intent to deceive.
6.
to express what is false; convey a false impression.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
btnben
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 14:33
Permalink
3 & 6 Don't
No knowledge or intent mentioned there?
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
Pennywise
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 14:41
Permalink
That's right, 3 & 6 don't.
That's right, 3 & 6 don't. But I think most people, if asked, would say that lying entails dishonesty. If one honestly believes that a false statement is true, that person would not be acting dishonestly. It's a pretty important (and meaningful) distinction. After all, would you say a child was lying if he said "Santa brought me my Christmas presents" and the child really believed that?
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
btnben
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 14:45
Permalink
This arose.....
......because Clara said AA was not mandated in every state and Danny said that it was. Was one of them lying? I, personally, think so. That's why I said it.
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
gigi
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 15:01
Permalink
Santa
I don't think that it can be considered lying if someone passes on incorrect information that they believe to be true. Someone can state that "AA has saved millions of lives" honestly if he believes that to be true. He is not speaking dishonestly, he is merely conveying his perception of the truth. The danger is with untrue claims being allowed to be taken as true because nobody bothered to question the statement in the first place.
"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."
Pennywise
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 14:26
Permalink
Well, below is the dictionary
duplicate
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
becket
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 14:35
Permalink
"Language is about conveying
"Language is about conveying meaning," you say. It is not a matter of legality, although legal terms may be very precise. If you want to impart an idea you need first to think carefully about how it will be received. Pennywise is quite right in what he says. Your knee-jerk stereotyping is exactly the kind of thing that leads to tirades of posts endorsing and opposing ideas that are unclear and misunderstood to begin with. Please don't accuse anyone else of wasting your time here with pro-AA posts. It is you, btnben, who creates the primary time toilet by failure to communicate with precision.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
btnben
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 14:40
Permalink
That's another fine.....
......mess you've got me into, C&E...lol
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
causeandeffect
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:53
Permalink
danny's posts on JREF are
danny's posts on JREF are making all AA members everywhere look exceedingly ignorant. He's an embarrassment to AA and doesn't even know when to quit to save face. At least alfie knew when he had thoroughly humiliated himself and left. LOL!
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
becket
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 14:41
Permalink
Which two courts in the U.S.
Which two courts in the U.S. declared AA to be religious in nature? I'd like to know if you can say how that edict trickles down to mandating AA attendance in that/those states.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
Pennywise
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 14:58
Permalink
It's more than two. The 9th
It's more than two. The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals, the 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals, as well as many other courts. Here are a few examples:
Kerr v. Farrey, 95 F. 3d 472 - Court of Appeals, 7th Circuit 1996:
A straightforward reading of the twelve steps shows clearly that the steps are based on the monotheistic idea of a single God or Supreme Being. True, that God might be known as Allah to some, or YHWH to others, or the Holy Trinity to still others, but the twelve steps consistently refer to "God, as we understood Him." Even if we expanded the steps to include polytheistic ideals, or animistic philosophies, they are still fundamentally based on a religious concept of a Higher Power. Kerr alleged, furthermore, that the meetings were permeated with explicit religious content. This was therefore not a case (again, on the present record) where the only religious note was struck by the insertion of the words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, or other incidental references that the courts have upheld. See, e.g., Sherman v. Wheeling School District, 980 F.2d 437 (7th Cir.1992). Because that is true, the program runs afoul of the prohibition against the state's favoring religion in general over non-religion.
DeStefano v. Emergency Housing Group, Inc., 247 F. 3d 397 - Court of Appeals, 2nd Circuit 2001:
So we must be content to observe the rough boundary that the cases have established between that which is and that which is not "religion" for these purposes. A.A., our cases teach, is on the religion side of the line. That must, for us, be the end of the matter.
Warner v. Orange County Dept. of Probation, 115 F. 3d 1068 - Court of Appeals, 2nd Circuit 1996:
The A.A. program to which Warner was exposed had a substantial religious component. Participants were told to pray to God for help in overcoming their affliction. Meetings opened and closed with group prayer. The trial judge reasonably found that it "placed a heavy emphasis on spirituality and prayer, in both conception and in practice." We have no doubt that the meetings Warner attended were intensely religious events.
Inouye v. Kemna, 504 F. 3d 705 - Court of Appeals, 9th Circuit 2007:
Our record on the content of the AA/NA program here is limited to Inouye's allegations that AA/NA is based in "a higher power." Nanamori does not, however, dispute that the program was substantially based in religion, and presents no evidence that the program differed from the usual AA/NA program, described by the Second Circuit in Warner as comprising "intensely religious events," 115 F.3d at 1075, and by the Seventh Circuit in Kerr as "fundamentally based on a religious concept of a Higher Power." 95 F.3d at 480. As such, on this summary judgment record and given the lack of dispute between the parties in question, 714*714 we have no trouble deciding that the third prong of Kerr's Establishment Clause test has been met as well.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
btnben
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 15:03
Permalink
You'll have JR after you Penny...lol
That reply was very much in his style and thoroughness...lol
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
becket
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 15:06
Permalink
Is mandating (still) going on
Is mandating (still) going on in these places?
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
Pennywise
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 15:40
Permalink
Well, it probably is, but I
Well, it probably is, but I don't know. It was in Inouye v. Kemna. In that case, the plaintiff's PO mandated AA attendance despite the previous court rulings. The 9th Circuit ruled that:
"Nanamori's mistake as to the law was not reasonable. An officer in Nanamori's position, having available near-unanimous judicial invalidation of religious coercion in this and similar contexts, with a lawsuit in progress against the prison system for mandating participation in a similar program, and having Kerr in hand, should not have reasonably repeated the same mistake."
Thus, the plaintiff was allowed to recover money damages because the constitutional violation was so flagrant. Now, most POs are more careful. What they'll do is order mandatory "community recovery meetings." Although this requirement could be satisfied by attending AA alternatives, most AA alternatives are far less accessible and far less easy to find than AA. Hence, most people, for practical reasons, choose to fulfill those requirements in AA.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Trisha K.
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:38
Permalink
AA is not the only choice but it may be the only free choice
This is how it is mandated. So yes it is still widespread. But it is by default most of the time.
The way most people find themselves court-mandated to attend Alcoholics Anonymous meetings is by getting a drunk-driving conviction. In addition, A.A. is ordered for other alcohol-related convictions and in some domestic violence situations.
A.A. is not the only choice. Under alternative sentencing programs, offenders are usually given several program options they can complete instead of going to jail. These include: entering a professional drug and alcohol rehabilitation facility, undergoing professional counseling or therapy, or attending A.A. or an alternative support group program.
Many offenders end up in Alcoholics Anonymous simply because it's the only option that is free and is usually the most available of the options, with meetings in virtually every city and town. But for those who object to going to A.A., the other, more expensive options are available along with secular support groups in some areas.
Just so everyone knows. I am not jumping up and down happy about this. I really do like people attending AA who felt coerced into going. At least in this scenario above they were given a choice. I understand it does not feel like a choice when you have no money but at least there were options other then AA. Plus since everyone here is for people making there own decisions maybe next time the people who felt AA was the only choice can make a better choice from the onset. Don't drink and drive, don't hit your spouse or don't commit a crime while drunk.
AA is not at fault here.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine
Clara
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 15:15
Permalink
Then it makes sense why none
Then it makes sense why none of the states I looked up the dui sentences would include any language other than "out patient program" or some such. Why could Florida be so behind in updating it statutes? All I have read is DUI school, which I am more familiar with in SC as being called ADSAP, which was not AA.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Pennywise
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 15:34
Permalink
Yes, but many of the out
Yes, but many of the out patient programs are 12 Step based. That's how they try to squeeze this shit through the backdoor.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Clara
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:00
Permalink
AA and NA are. But you
AA and NA are. But you indicate others such as SMART. Isn't that available or do you have to pay for it? Out patient can also be seeing a shrink. It's not necessarily rehab.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Pennywise
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:02
Permalink
It depends. There is no one
It depends. There is no one sentence that applies everywhere. As far as I understand it, SMART is free. But good luck finding three SMART meetings a week, esspecially if you are in a rural area.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Clara
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 17:08
Permalink
But people are not obligated
But people are not obligated to pay at AA. Plenty of times, the basket goes around with 25 people in the room and I would count 12.00 as treasurer.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
btnben
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 17:21
Permalink
That's $0.48 each
LOL
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
Ironic
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 17:30
Permalink
In Broward County, FL
The county outpatient and inpatient programs are heavily intertwined with AA. For example, we watched an HBO documentary about addiction where Suboxone was shown to be very successful for the individuals in the documentary. Our group leader was sure to mention that we should disregard that part of the documentary because it was not AA friendly.
btnben
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:04
Permalink
SMART is free, unlike AA
No Big Books. No "must have " literature. No speaker CDs. No donations to Intergroup. Just recovery.
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
Clara
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 17:10
Permalink
I know plenty of people that
I know plenty of people that go to meetings and don't pay. I know others that only pay at their homegroup, but go to other meetings as well. It isn't obligatory to pay at AA.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Trisha K.
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:41
Permalink
No that is not true, Penny.
You still continue to align AA/GSO NYC with every pseudo 12 step wannabe program out there. Like AA is behind the program. This is a fabrication you are promoting.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine
Pennywise
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 19:03
Permalink
Did I say AA/GSO NYC was
Did I say AA/GSO NYC was behind anything? What I said is that by ordering offenders to attend rehabs (more than 90% of which are 12 Step based), the authorities do through the back door what they can't do through the front door (i.e., coerce offenders to participate in religious activity).
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
causeandeffect
Thu, 03/01/2012 - 17:49
Permalink
As someone on ST said:
As someone on ST said:
I have the only disease that tells me it's not a disease. I have the only religion that tells me it's not a religion. LOL!
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
Trisha K.
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 10:39
Permalink
That would be a profound statement if it was true.
Since it is not true, it is just another goofy saying someone said on a blog.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine
Pages