The Twelve Biggest Secrets of Alcoholics Anonymous

avogadno's picture
Submitted by avogadno on Thu, 03/01/2012 - 14:28

I thought I'd start discussions on this "chapter" of the Orange Papers. Since we've been disussing different aspects of this recently I won't go in order that Orange has them listed.

"A.A. flat-out lies when it says it is a program of rigorous honesty; it is just the opposite — a program of rigorous dishonesty":

http://orange-papers.org/orange-secrets.html

If you read all of my posts in this forum you will know that my worst grievance about AA is that they LIE to get members and to keep them. I don't care if AA is religious, I care that they LIE and say that they are NOT religious. I could care less that AA is a program to help people get closer to their higher power, but I do care a lot that they LIE and claim that it is a program about getting sober. It is clearly not. And I don't care if AA is a failure or not. I care that AA LIES, claiming to have saved millions and that it is the only, or the best way to get sober.

Finding out that I had been deceived by Alcoholics Anonymous and that they "fake" practically everything about their organization by way of greed and for power, was a big moment for me. I was finally able to start living without the mess of confusion that had been circling throughout my brain for 5 years.

Comments

btnben's picture

btnben

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 11:41

How long you're going to be on here? That reads like threatening behaviour to me. Wonder what Orange feels - let's ask...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 11:48

But Trisha, I'm the one who keeps saying you're not danny. And can you please link me to all this information about me and JR?

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 11:51

I told you I could care less. You work it out.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 11:51

dragging girls around in the parking lot. Please stop.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 11:54

But Trish, I'm the one who keeps saying you're not danny. And can you please provide a link to fornits where myself and JR are being discussed?

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:47

They are going to hide everything Danny. You're only as sick as your secrets you know. Don't worry, you don't have any secrets, I think they have all been told, except for a few........

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:15

Gosh, is he attractive or what? Just as in Timothy Leary, who loved LSD and was a pro-researcher on it, they have educational qualifications. As I said, I have no idea what his study found.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:17

I was going to mention something. Thanks!

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

btnben's picture

btnben

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:22

LOL

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

btnben's picture

btnben

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:18

.......... I would like to say how insulting and sexist I find your comments. We are not pieces of meat made for your enjoyment. Such outrageous behaviour must be highlighted and ridiculed.....lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

btnben's picture

btnben

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:21

"After initial discharge, only five patients in the [A.A.] Clinic sample never relapsed to alcoholic drinking, and there is compelling evidence that the results of our treatment were no better than the natural history of the disease.
...
Not only had we failed to alter the natural history of alcoholism, but our death rate of three percent a year was appalling.
...

Once again, our results were no better than the natural history of the disorder.

The Natural History of Alcoholism: Causes, Patterns, and Paths to Recovery, George E. Vaillant, Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA, 1983, pages 283-286.
The same text was reprinted in Vaillant's later book, The Natural History of Alcoholism Revisited, George E. Vaillant, Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA, 1995, pages 349-352.

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 10:14

It doesn't matter that your friend is in a commune or if people don't know about AA membership.

Please respond. You stated that I was opposed to spirituality. I resent that and I'd appreciate if you back that statement up or admit your error and make your claim correctly. Please don't avoid this.

Also, please don't say that I have made bold and un-truthful accusations and then run off and not say what they were.

Also, my original question to you was about how AA LIES about not being religious. Do you not care that they continually lie in order to get people to join the program?

Please show me where I can see data that proves that AA has saved at least one million lives.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

btnben's picture

btnben

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 10:21

Clara only answers questions where the answer ends with "....but not in my experience" or the like. Straight yes/no or factual answers are big no-nos. Don't you remember you're time in AA?...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 10:36

Sorry, got you confused with theposter that doesn't belileve in a God or spirituality.

The concept of God came about, I believe, because people were having issues with God at all. I know many people that are recovering Catholics, if you will, and felt driven away from God. I don't understand the fire and brimstone God of the Baptists, I don't get anything more than God is love. When I joined the fellowship I did't care. I read the steps and found them to be a framework to repair my life. That's fine with me. How others interpret it is up to them.

As far as the commune, it is a great example to me of leaving when you see that something isn't for you. I checked it out and left. Why others checked out AA and felt they couldn't leave it is beyond me.

As for millions, that is in response to someone else's silly post that also couldn't be proven. Ask them for their proof.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

btnben

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 10:38

LOL

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 10:50

LOL is right, Ben. Didn't you learn to share you rexperience, strenth and hope?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

btnben

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 10:54

My spellchecker's not working either...lol

Even after the spelling's corrected it makes fucking zilch sense...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 11:41

Clara says
"Why others checked out AA and felt they couldn't leave it is beyond me."

Because they LIE about their success rate, membership rate, history, religious status, and much more. They also flat out IGNORE claims of several forms of abuse that occurs in and around the AA community and do absolutely NOTHING to help prevent it. They DON'T CARE who gets hurt as long AA continues to make money.

I am just the opposite of you Clara. I don't understand why anyone would advocate a program that has the above qualities. Since I am sober by my own free (a gift given to me by (my) God), there is absolutely no benefit to the program. If by luck this lying, decieving, brainwashing organization actually did help in my personal quest for sobriety, I'd still leave it behind, search for something else, and warn others of the dangers. I am not a greedy and self-centered individual that only cares about my own well being.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 11:54

Avo, it worked for me. I haven't once come on this board and told you to go back, to try this, to do that... It has been my experience that it does work. It didn't work for you, so you went on and that is great. I said in some of my very first posts that I didn't agree with all of it. I don't agree with all of the Bible, either, nor do I think Freedom of Speech is an unlimited right and I blog about that, too. I don't think AA is the only way to stay sober nor do I think AA thinks that, either. My husband went to AA meetings for 20 years and never got involved with it beyond meetings. I am the one that loved to put together parties and club events, organizing parties for our boat on weekends and the like. I loved the fellowship. I could also do these things because I retired early and could have my own fun with it. My husband still works. He would describe a different AA to you because, for him, it is.

We had people leave the fellowship all of the time, for whatever reason. No one chased them down the street, grabbed by the ankles and dragged them back. I also wasn't a greedy, didn't know right fom wrong type of person. Some of my alcoholic behavior might belie that... But I cannot honestly say that I felt made to stay against my free will. Now, I have also said that I do not like the meetings here in El Paso. I loved my meetings at the beach. I am grateful to stay connected with so many great people on Facebook and the like because they became much more than just people in rooms.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

btnben

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 11:57

.....tried going to online AA meetings of forums. Not that I'm trying to get rid of you (One of those last two sentences contained a deliberate lie - can you spot it?)

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:04

Yeah Ben, I think she should keep going to meetings and give it a chance. El Paso is a big city and there must be literally hundreds, if not thousands of meetings. And just because she's tried a particular groups and didn't like it doesn't mean that all the meetings that group has is bad. It just means she has to keep going back until she gets to know people. I say at least 180 meetings in 90 days and if that doesn't get it, never give up.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:22

In MB there were tons of meetings. Here, despite 600,000 population, there are not so many... Plus, the ones we checked out didn't have singleness of purpose, which is important to us. Our problem was alcohol, not meth, other drugs, or if you get an erection when the wind blows. It's just an altogether different animal. Plus, as I also indicated in earlier posts, my dog is terminally ill and I have spent much time in vet offices, which made for less availability and being at his beck and call to give meds in the event of a seizure.

You can disagree with me all you want and that is fine with me. But I feel that I have been very open with who I am and what I am about with you. I have not gotten that in return, which is fine, too. But if it is an example of the sobriety you got from the programs you went to, I am glad to stay where I am and to keep looking for the fit!

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

btnben

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:24

.....being so fucking superior. Bad news. You're not...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:31

I am not claiming to be. Others have said that AA had nothing they wanted, using a catchphrase as a tongue in cheek, so why can't sentiment not be repeated in this like situation?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

btnben

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:37

Absolutely nothing. Every single thing you have said has been heard hundreds of times by everyone on here and dismissed as cult dogma. Why do you feel the need to keep repeating it. We all know - you're happy. You say it every other post. WHAT DO YOU WANT HERE?

Whenever things get factual and interesting (ie someone might learn something new) you duck and run like a true stepper. If you want ANY respect, start answering questions and not reply with the sanctimonious bilge you keep using. Remember, everyone on here is pretty expert at recognising bullshit!!!!

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:49

We have also noticed that when pressed for your personal experience on most topics here. You tuck tale and run or you become vulgar and start trolling the person asking you questions.
Why is this?

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

btnben's picture

btnben

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:52

Random accusations are meaningless without evidence.

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:55

Ben has told us plenty, your just fishing for information Danny. So how did you get involved with the two "love birds" councilors in Elan? They came by after you and then they escaped to Australia with Marvin Sembler and the Straight, Inc. crowd. Small world isn't it Danny.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 13:37

Ben, your behavior hasn't endured you to me as anyone whose respect I particularly care about. When I do provide sources as to why I believe, they immediately get dismissed or I am told ahead of time what I CAN'T use as a source, a condition that isn't leveled at anyone else. A good question for you is why it matters at all to you that I AM here, not why I choose to be, which has been addressed numerous times.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

btnben

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 13:52

I will cheer when you finally disappear from this forum. You are a waste of everyone's time. You continually spout the AA line which, by the simple fact that they are here, most people don't want to hear. Your glib regurgitation of the party line is exactly what the majority are trying to get away from. The fact that you won't answer questions simply highlights you as being a nothing. "Empty vessels make most noise"...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 14:05

Ben, you have to be a slogan spouting stepper to be "endured" by them.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

btnben's picture

btnben

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 14:10

No-one is that fucking annoying. And still alive...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 14:51

I cannot imagine that anything can piss you off so much. My sponsor WOULD ask me what my role was in it because no one else has control over my moods or how I react. You are very interesting. You put something out there and then don't like the responses. You give me a man to research and suddenly there is an issue with the fact that he supports something I have though all of my life as well as a disease concept for alcoholism. I obviously cannot read an 8 year study in a matter of minutes, but I did a quick search on his book and liked enough of what the synopsis said to ask a librarian to locate it. I'm happy that you are doing these things.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:36

Ben we are not impressed with your foul language.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

btnben's picture

btnben

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:46

Why do you say "we". You are alone - Very alone and very sad with it...lol. Do you think you are more than one person? That is an illness too and, yes, you can create your own 12 step cult to cure it...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:50

Because I have many friends here, ben. You have met them recently. :)

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

btnben's picture

btnben

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:53

Anyone on here admit to being Danny's friend...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:58

Well Trace LIn who threatened to rape humanspirit and screamed to be banned was his friend. And so was perplexity. I see new ones on the horizon. Funny how all his friends get banned...

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:42

I'm not so impressed with the "sobriety" of the programs you went to either. So what?

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:59

Which is why you left, and that is fine, but it doesn't appear the the sobriety gained in the alternatives generated much joy that is reflected here. Just saying.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

btnben

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 13:02

That your presence is pissing people off? You don't belong here. No-one understands why you stay. You offer nothing but sanctimonious dribble. Why are you doing it? What do you want? You just won't answer!!!!! Can't you see how annoying that can be?

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 13:14

You are the only one having this mini psycho-drama moment. Please stop saying we (people).

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 13:38

Then you simply haven't been reading my posts, one that was even addressed to you specifically after the last Monday meeting. Why don't you tell me what you want me to say since your language is the only thing you understand?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

gigi

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 13:48

How's that?

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 14:17

Yes, Ben should do that, but if I had uttered oneof AA slogans, it would have been denounced as sanctimonious dribble while you guys are probably doing high fives over such a predictable response.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

btnben

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 14:00

A simple question

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

gigi

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 14:04

"If you and I are going to stay sober, we had better get busy." pg.188
Clara's a missionary and a zealot.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

becket's picture

becket

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 14:38

There is zealotry on both sides of this equation.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 14:23

For one thing, you just gave me a wonderful opportunity to read about a man that I knew nothing about. I hope the librarian can get that book ther inter-library loan. You should be pleased with yourself. If it disabuses an AA, haven't you done your job?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 14:28

Good luck with that.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

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