The Twelve Biggest Secrets of Alcoholics Anonymous

avogadno's picture
Submitted by avogadno on Thu, 03/01/2012 - 14:28

I thought I'd start discussions on this "chapter" of the Orange Papers. Since we've been disussing different aspects of this recently I won't go in order that Orange has them listed.

"A.A. flat-out lies when it says it is a program of rigorous honesty; it is just the opposite — a program of rigorous dishonesty":

http://orange-papers.org/orange-secrets.html

If you read all of my posts in this forum you will know that my worst grievance about AA is that they LIE to get members and to keep them. I don't care if AA is religious, I care that they LIE and say that they are NOT religious. I could care less that AA is a program to help people get closer to their higher power, but I do care a lot that they LIE and claim that it is a program about getting sober. It is clearly not. And I don't care if AA is a failure or not. I care that AA LIES, claiming to have saved millions and that it is the only, or the best way to get sober.

Finding out that I had been deceived by Alcoholics Anonymous and that they "fake" practically everything about their organization by way of greed and for power, was a big moment for me. I was finally able to start living without the mess of confusion that had been circling throughout my brain for 5 years.

Comments

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 18:03

Bill said he had a spiritual awakening>>not true

Bill told Norman Vincent Peale "“I was powerless to save myself from an evil force that was stronger than I was. One night I went up on a windy hill and looked at the stars and cried out to God. I begged Him to let the great healing wind of His Spirit blow through me and make me clean once more. And He heard my cry. I never touched alcohol again.”>>Not true. He was actually in a hospital tripping his balls off on belladona.

Edited to add link to the big lie.

http://www.alladdictsanonymous.org/articles_peale.htm

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

AntiDenial

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 08:41

It is funny how trolls like to twist peoples words around. No where did I state that NA cannot sell literature. The point was that they LIED that they do sell items. As if you didn't know, AA/NA charge a lot more than .15 for literature. In fact selling the Big Book is their biggest profit center to pay the CEO's of AA Huge salaries.

Articles of Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 09:19

I am sure that the cops laugh out loud when they hear things such as these. Different literature has different prices. The pamphlets can range from 15 cents to maybe a dollar. The BB is now something like 8. from 6. when I joined 5 years ago. Sorry, I am sure that the cops feel this is about as big a deal as I do.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

becket's picture

becket

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 02:58

So Bill W. DID NOT talk to ghosts? And how is a photograph of a hotel lobby a lie?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 04:52

It's funny that we anti aa'ers know more about the history of AA than the kool-aid drinking AA ThinkSpeakers.

So, NB becket, you don't know the fabricated "story" of how Bill W. supposedly was hooked up with the ass Dr?

Oh, and if you believe in ghosts, may the force be with ya.

edit: apparently the Untruths I posted above that NB becket wants to refute is that ghosts exists, and the Mayflower lobby story. NB becket is ok with the other lies re: AA that I posted. Quite telling, that!

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 04:51

With the help of the apologetic AA trolls, the Internet knows that..............

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

becket's picture

becket

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 13:01

Look at the way these read:

"AA's Untruths

AA history says Bill W authored the BB>>> not true
AA history says Bill W was a stockbroker>>> not true
AA history says Bill W talked to ghosts>>> not true
AA says it is not a religion>>> not true
AA says it has the only “treatment” for “alcoholism”>>> not true
AA says if you don’t “Stepit” you will die>>> not true
AA says it will not get involved in “outside” issues>>> not true
AA says it is not about money>>> not true
Another lie - the lobby of the Mayflower - where Bill W was hooked with the proctologist"

Are you claiming that sanctioned AA history denies these propositions, or are you claiming that the propositions themselves are untrue? It's a subtle difference, but one that can completely change the meaning and interpretation of your allegations.

Also, would you please address how the lobby of the Mayflower hotel is "another lie" - how can an environment be a lie?

I'm unfamiliar with the term "NB" - would you be good enough to explain that as well? Thanks.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 17:45

Some people lie and don't even realize they are doing it. For example my friend says "AA has saved millions of lives". That is a bold statement. But she didn't mean to lie. People repeat the same things over and again during meetings. Hearing the same bill-shit with heads nodding and hooting, people start believing and never question. It’s a rumor not a fact.

They also repeatedly say that it is spiritual and not religious. Newcomers start repeating it because no one ever questions anything in a meeting. “Shhhhh, no cross talk”. Ha! Maybe they say, “that’s an outside issue”.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 09:20

How do you know that it hasn't saved millions of lives? You say it is bold yet you say something similar with no more roof than you think she has. I personally believe that it can be a religious program and that it definitely has Christian roots. Read page 188. I also think it is spritual, but even if it was spiritual, you are against that as well, so how did you find yourself there? No cross talk has nothing to do with trying to stem a different opinion. It is simply to let the meeting have flow and so someone can speak without interruption. It is meeting courtesy.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 09:37

It isn't my responsibility to prove that it hasn't saved millions of lives it is for those that make the claim. That isn't even a ballpark figure. I don't know if she means 1 million or 3 or 10. I'd like to know where the number came from. Even if I wanted to prove that AA has not saved "millions" of lives and I can't, that means that she or you or anyone else can't prove that it has. It's just another wish that became a rumor and spread like weeds do.

What did I say that was similar to her exclamation? What did I make up? What statement of mine was a bold un-truth?

I said that AA and many members of the organization LIE and say it that is not a religion program. I backed up my statement by pointing out a ruling that 2 judges in 2 different states made. What do you think of that? Can you refute that AA is not lying?

I don't have a big book handy to read page 188. What does it say and what does that matter in this case? If it says it's not religious then it would be another lie.

Why do you assume that I am opposed to spirituality?

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 10:06

But it is typical on this blog to throw out "AA kills" and the like. That's just silliness. Most of the time, people don't even know someone was in AA unil they die and the family might decide to put it in the obit. Some people just put things out there that they know cannot be proven one way or the other. You can't prove that it doesn't save lives. Many people in AA feel that it did save their life... And if htey believe that way, who is anyone to say otherwise? I didn't live their life and I don't know.

If I would have found the program to be so objectionable, I know very well that I would have left in short order. I have a friend in a commune. She invited me to come up and see if it might not be an interesting way to live. I spent two weeks there before I realized that it pretty much was a few peope supporting the many while they pursued their art, writing, and other things that didn't bring in money. I left. She's still there and loves it.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

btnben

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 10:10

.... said that AA kills. Are you saying he is wrong Clara? He proved it with an 8 years long government funded study. How long has your study been conducted and under what conditions?

And, be careful. Prof. Vaillant was on the Board of Trustees for a lot of years. He should know what he was talking about.

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 10:56

I never read his study. In fact, I don't know who he is. I also may not care. At the end of the day, I'm sober!

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 11:01

That's right! Who cares if people are dying as long as you're OK! Everybody, Clara is sober, and all those other people don't matter so we can all just quit getting the word out. Time for this forum to close!

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

AntiDenial

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 11:59

I couldnt of said it better myself C&E. Typical 12 step narcissistic behavior. It is all about them. 'Some must dies so others can live' crap. These are life and death matters, and will be treated as such by me anyway.

Articles of Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:11

Silly.... I don't think the world collapses based on one study. I am not familiar with it and how would I be able to read a whole study in the short time it was introduced to this board and form an opinion? I am amazed at what you all think are reasonable behaviors.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 11:58

It seems all you care about is your infatuation with Danny and trolling me. Some how you think we are both connected....lol.
Clara has demonstrated a very caring and compassionate personality here on this site. Look at what she has had to put up with from members who are anti-aa fanatics.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:07

Clara says she's come here to have a discussion with us. So we're discussing things with her. Why do you care? Nobody is forcing either of you to be here. If you don't like discussion, you are free to leave.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:12

Just as in AA, eh? I enjoy it here, although I find your behaviors to show just what you claim was so problematic in AA. I wonder how happy some of these people would have been anywhere.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

btnben

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:14

If your going to be judgmental, fuck off elsewhere.

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:29

ben wrote: ("If your going to be judgmental, fuck off elsewhere.")

ben,
Cursing at people is rude. Please read your posts? You have spent the last 3 hours calling me names, such as Danny. This is a judgment, but not once did I become angry and curse at you nor did I get personal with you.
Please do not use such fowl language with me. I do not deserve it.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:18

What behaviors Clara? Where have I done anything other than disagree with you? Why would you go somewhere that you are going to disagree with people, disagree with them, then act like you're the injured party when they disagree back? It simply doesn't make sense.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:28

I am far from injured, but anyone looking at the collective behaviors of the OP regulars can see that the focus has been on a personality, not a topic. Bending over backwards to count typos, to calculate time logged and the like... It been humorous.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

btnben

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:30

......to look at the specimens and agitate them a little for your amusement? Welcome to the zoo Clara. Careful which side of the bars you're on....lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:33

We just have differences of opinion, Ben. I like the AA side of the bars just fine. LOL is right.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:34

Trust me Clara. If any of us went to a pro-AA board and expressed our opinions, not only would we be attacked, but our posts would be deleted and we would be banned as soon as the moderators discovered us. Dissent is not allowed in AA sites. You have been treated with far more respect than that.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:55

We also had it in our rooms as well. We never shied from someone having a differing opinion and I say that as someone that often chaired our meetings.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:23

There are several others who share are thoughts that post here, thank you.
I would appreciate it if you would stop asking people to leave when you have no authority to do so.
Thank you.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

btnben's picture

btnben

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:25

You're on your own. Always have been, always will be...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

btnben's picture

btnben

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 11:09

"George Eman Vaillant, M.D. (born 1934) is an American psychiatrist and Professor at Harvard Medical School and Director of Research for the Department of Psychiatry, Brigham and Women's Hospital. Dr. Vaillant has spent his research career charting adult development and the recovery process of schizophrenia, heroin addiction, alcoholism, and personality disorder. He has spent the last 30 years as Director of the Study of Adult Development at the Harvard University Health Service. The study has prospectively charted the lives of 824 men and women for over 60 years."

I'm surprised you haven't heard of him - he's real big in AA. They just don't highlight what he ACTUALLY found out. AA actively hide his results.

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 11:12

Ben, did you know he also found there is really no such thing as an alcoholic personality?

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

btnben's picture

btnben

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 11:14

That ONE admission could fuck up the whole 75 years of scamming. You keep it to yourself. A lot of people will lose a lot of money if that gets out.

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 11:32

I think the Harvard Press did one. I was hoping other Doctors in the same field had something to say. Did the American Journal of Psychology review this book?
AJP Journal, reviews books in various areas of cognitive/experimental psychology, philosophy of mind and science, neuroscience, and cognitive science more generally.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

btnben's picture

btnben

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 11:37

Danny's used this peer review trick on another site. I think C&E might remember...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 11:45

I found orange papers through JREFS.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 11:39

What you're talking about is a book review, not a peer review. For a partial list of PhD's who did a book review, please look at the link previously provided, trisha.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

btnben's picture

btnben

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 11:43

He picked up the idea from another blog. I think it makes him look really intelligent......lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 11:49

It was funny 5 posts ago.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 11:47

BTW, I read what Danny had to say on JREFS and found it to be idiotic. If you noticed no one came to his defense.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

btnben's picture

btnben

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 11:50

......number of people who have agreed with you about anything on this Forum Dan.....sorry "Trisha K"...lol

And why are you saying "Thanks". I said it made Danny look intelligent - oops - what a giveaway...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:33

I would have liked to have seen one.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 14:43

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=8052953&postcount=6581

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:29

I think there are personality traits of alcoholics. I've seen it all my life, and even my Irish grandmothers could tell which of her gkids were going to have problems regarding drink.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:40

It doesn't seem that he says that. I am calling the library now to see if they have his book... A Natural History of Alcoholism.

That alcoholism is as much a social as a medical condition. "Alcoholism can simultaneously reflect both a conditioned habit and a disease."[2]
Factors predicting alcoholism were related to ethnic culture, alcoholism in relatives, and a personality that is antisocial and extroverted. An unhappy childhood predicted mental illness but not alcoholism—unless the family problems were due to alcoholism.

Thanks, Ben! Not only is he good looking (or at least was when the photo was taken) but he seems to share what I have believed.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

btnben

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:42

You believe like a stepper. I just feel sorry for you when it all comes crashing down, because it does for everyone eventually. Why do you think AA is dwindling?

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 12:58

Ben, I know people that have had years of sobriety in AA. I don't have a reason to think I cannot be the same. You weren't happy there. That's fine, but iti sn't true of everyone, as you claim.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 11:15

Clara, before ben drones on in his typical boorish fashion please do some research on your own. Dr.Vaillant while conducting these studies was on the board of AA/GSO. So hiding anything would have been absurd.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

btnben's picture

btnben

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 11:19

Dan.....sorry "Trisha K" - it's "an typical..." not "a typical". Please correct your post...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 11:21

I know. If Trisha keeps using "an" before an consonant, people will begin to think he really is danny.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Fri, 03/02/2012 - 11:38

Orange knows exactly who I am. He has all my information. So please don't worry. If I were you, I would worry about the issues that have come forward concerning JR and yourself.
I can not help you. Really, I can't.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

Pages