The Twelve Biggest Secrets of Alcoholics Anonymous
I thought I'd start discussions on this "chapter" of the Orange Papers. Since we've been disussing different aspects of this recently I won't go in order that Orange has them listed.
"A.A. flat-out lies when it says it is a program of rigorous honesty; it is just the opposite — a program of rigorous dishonesty":
http://orange-papers.org/orange-secrets.html
If you read all of my posts in this forum you will know that my worst grievance about AA is that they LIE to get members and to keep them. I don't care if AA is religious, I care that they LIE and say that they are NOT religious. I could care less that AA is a program to help people get closer to their higher power, but I do care a lot that they LIE and claim that it is a program about getting sober. It is clearly not. And I don't care if AA is a failure or not. I care that AA LIES, claiming to have saved millions and that it is the only, or the best way to get sober.
Finding out that I had been deceived by Alcoholics Anonymous and that they "fake" practically everything about their organization by way of greed and for power, was a big moment for me. I was finally able to start living without the mess of confusion that had been circling throughout my brain for 5 years.
- avogadno's blog
- Log in or register to post comments
Comments
Trisha K.
Thu, 03/01/2012 - 16:23
Permalink
This is a bold statement Avacado, AA is lying.
I am sure your buddies will come by and rubber stamp your statement here, but if you really wanted a good honest conversation about the topic you brought up above. I would stop making bold judgments that imply anybody who is affiliated with AA, is a liar.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine
avogadno
Thu, 03/01/2012 - 16:45
Permalink
Don't join then
"if you really wanted a good honest conversation about the topic you brought up above. I would stop making bold judgments that imply anybody who is affiliated with AA, is a liar."
I don't think that anyone affiliated with aa is a liar.
Choose a topic from my paragraph and we can discuss it if you want. Otherwise, carry on.....
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
AntiDenial
Thu, 03/01/2012 - 16:47
Permalink
Did you mean everyone not
Did you mean everyone not anyone avo?
Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org
avogadno
Thu, 03/01/2012 - 21:31
Permalink
Anti D.
Are you asking me what I meant?
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
AntiDenial
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 06:33
Permalink
"I don't think that anyone
"I don't think that anyone affiliated with aa is a liar."
I thought your previous points was to point out that AA does lie. But your statement sounds like you dont.
Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org
avogadno
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 09:25
Permalink
Sorry Anti D
I meant to say that I don't think EVERYONE that is affiliated with aa is a liar. Not "anyone". Like, not all members. I do not think that they are all lying. Many are lying dirtbags and they know it too. Also, many lie and don't even realize they are doing it (they hear the bill-shit so much the believe it's true). Some are lying, "faking it until they make it" and just never stop.
I was a member for many years and I can't say I was lying. I tried to "fake it" and it didn't work. I tried to pray for powerlessness at the urging of my sponsor, even though I didn't believe I was (I'm pissed at myself about that). I felt phony. I never talked the talk though. A lot of that had to do with my issues staying clean. I couldn't while I was a member aos at my sponsors' instruction I didn't talk, I listened.
Sorry for the mix up, Anti. :=)
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
massive
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 01:28
Permalink
AA is full of lies. I could
AA is full of lies. I could go on a rant or you could read Hank Hayes book YOU'VE BEEN LIED TO...and he rips part the Preamble for me.
Half of the Traditions are now lies. SO much of the book is made up Bullshit. SO much repeated in the rooms nowadys is made up Bullshit. Im gonna tear up the literature again on my blogtalkradio show. Safe Recovery.
Massive
AntiDenial
Thu, 03/01/2012 - 16:33
Permalink
They are a bunch of lying
They are a bunch of lying Daytona AA and Daytona NA members in our neck of the woods in the Daytona Beach Florida Intergroup.
Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org
causeandeffect
Thu, 03/01/2012 - 16:37
Permalink
I agree Avo. I was in
I agree Avo. I was in constant turmoil during my time in AA because of the contradictions. TI could see proof was not in the pudding and the pudding reeked. Finding confirmation that AA truly IS the lie that I was seeing was a wonderful release for me. I could finally be myself again. I finally became the happy, joyous and free person I could never be in AA. The only thing that still bothers me is knowing there are so many others who are still wondering why there was such a huge disconnect between what AA claims and reality. It really does bother me a great deal that it's been shown over and over that it's totally ineffective and that people are being convinced that it's the only way. It's a travesty.
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
avogadno
Thu, 03/01/2012 - 17:21
Permalink
Funny, weird, how you had to leave the program
Funny, weird, how you had to leave the program to achieve the happiness and joy that was promised. Holy Water Cause! Is that how it works??
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
Clara
Thu, 03/01/2012 - 17:32
Permalink
Especially when others didn't
Especially when others didn't have to... But that you found something is good, too.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
causeandeffect
Thu, 03/01/2012 - 17:39
Permalink
Yes, that's exactly "how it
Yes, that's exactly "how it works." LOL! After AA everything looks great! Even traffic jams are glorious!
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
avogadno
Thu, 03/01/2012 - 17:53
Permalink
Instant recovery
It feels gloriouss to instantly recover from a debilitating disease that is incurable and fatal. It's like hearing that they got the names mixed on blood tests. Yes!!!
I tell my AA friends that actually it is I that is the real miracle because I've cured myself of a disease without God.
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
Clara
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 07:32
Permalink
And I am sure that they tell
And I am sure that they tell you that it is fine. We know there isn't just one way.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
causeandeffect
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 09:06
Permalink
No, what they say is that AA
No, what they say is that AA is the only way and the only alternatives are jails, institutions or death. They say we are signing our own death warrants. More specifically, I was told I was worshiping the devil. Yes, the debil I say! LOL! That's the truth, too. I was actually told that.
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
Clara
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 09:24
Permalink
That wasn't the program
That wasn't the program telling you that. The was a person's opinion. It is curious, though, that you would even stay friends with anyone in AA, although we would have stayed friends with you. I would think you wouldn't find yourself having much in common with them unless, of course, you are different when off the blog.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
JR Harris
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 09:28
Permalink
Which pagan AA member was telling you this?
Just wondering. It's always nice to know the pagan lines of communication that AA has established.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
causeandeffect
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 09:36
Permalink
One of the most common things
One of the most common things we've noted is that very few AA members maintain friendships with those who've left the program. It does happen, but it's rare. That's just a fact. What I'm wondering is why you aren't spending your time with your AA friendships and your husband instead of spending all of your time here. It just doesn't make any sense. You say you want discussion, but really it's not what you're doing.
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
Clara
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 09:57
Permalink
What do you mean, "all your
What do you mean, "all your time?" I doubt you'd be saying that to someone that shared your same viewpoint. How lame. How long do you think it takes to respond to an alert? Seconds.
I am sure what you say is correct that few AA members maintain friendships with those that have left the bprogram, but it isn't because OUR doing. It takes two, you know, and the BB encourages us to stay friendly.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
JR Harris
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 10:02
Permalink
Are you talking about the pagan training manual "Big Book"??
Shame on you, do 90 Hail Mary's in 90 days as your penance.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
causeandeffect
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 10:09
Permalink
You still haven't answered
You still haven't answered the question as to why you're not spending your time in AA meeting and with AA friends. I'm curious about your alert system. I'd like one too. What's it called? Where did you get it?
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
Clara
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 10:41
Permalink
I didn't like the meetings
I didn't like the meetings here in El Paso, but the one we try to go to is at 5:30. I've gone a couple times a week. The last time was on Monday. So there's an hour you can account for.
As for the alert, my husband set it up. He is the IT guy in our family, and he has alerts set up on various blogs (different sounds for different ones) and on my stock accounts. Works like a charm.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara
Thu, 03/01/2012 - 17:58
Permalink
You must have had no
You must have had no tolerance at all if you couldn't make it through a traffic jam, Cause. It sounds as if you had a whole lot going on during those years. You'd have been mad at anything. I was like that once, too.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
causeandeffect
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 09:11
Permalink
Who said I couldn't make it
Who said I couldn't make it through a traffic jam? I only said a traffic jam was preferable to AA. It's the AA members who have all the road rage. Listening to their stories was quite disturbing. They were a danger to others on the road. The grocery store rage was a bit weird too.
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
causeandeffect
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 09:19
Permalink
I never could relate to AA
I never could relate to AA members' rage. But now looking at it from a different perspective, I can really understand that all the simmering rage in the old timers was just reactance stemming from the program itself, not something that was necessarily natural to them.
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
Clara
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 09:28
Permalink
You said that even traffic
You said that even traffic jams were glorious now. Interesting take. I guess the question now is why it took 5 years to move on from it. Remember that alcohol is but a symptom. And people take things out on others that have no power to scream back, hence, the guy at the Walmart ringing up your groceries. It's metaphirical. I've never screamed at a cashier. Now you claims that all road ragers are AA members. Too funny.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
JR Harris
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 09:35
Permalink
The pagan AA religion sometimes takes years to take hold
It usually takes multiple training rituals at the 12 Step training camps called Rehab at around a $1000 a day to do it. How many "prospects" have you put through the AA spin dry? Your buddy Clancy is a master of manipulation at it, he even performed the AA exorcism on Anthony Hopkins.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
avogadno
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 09:40
Permalink
Alcohol is a symptom.
Alcohol is a symptom?
Way to sneak that in, Clara. What does that mean?
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
alkieanon
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 22:49
Permalink
Hearsay
What you hear people say in meetings is not what is actually written:
"Our liquor was but a symptom."
That is one example of how fiction becomes fact in meetings.
causeandeffect
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 09:42
Permalink
Why must you misrepresent
Why must you misrepresent what others are saying. Perhaps because you can't address the issues honestly. I never said that all road ragers are AA members. I said AA members have pretty pronounced issues with road rage. And why would AA members scream at the guy at walmart ringing up groceries? It never made any sense to me.
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
Clara
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 10:00
Permalink
How can you generalize? Alot
How can you generalize? Alot of people have roadrage. It isn't limited to AA members. You are just being silly. Humorous, but silly. As I said, the Walmart thing is metaphorical. It just means taking advantage of someone that cannot scream back.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
JR Harris
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 10:10
Permalink
The Spiritual twisting of Religion in AA happens more
The problems with the twisting of the words and breaking of the lords commandments happen at a greater frequency and intensity around the pagan rituals of Alcoholics Anonymous than at Walmart. Get a grip on yourself Susan.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
causeandeffect
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 10:12
Permalink
Sure other people have road
Sure other people have road rage. I've never encountered so many people who have road rage to such a dangerous extent in all my life, that's all.
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
btnben
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 10:15
Permalink
True
One thing I noticed - especially in AA in Germany - when people sober up they seemed to assume they were all formula one drivers. I've never known so many accidents...lol. Myself and a friend went up to Gloucester for work 3 years ago - just for 2 weeks. I went to a meeting and met a guy who kindly offered to drive me to other meetings in the area. One night, he crashed the car twice on the way to the meeting...lol
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
btnben
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 10:15
Permalink
Duplicate
..
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
Trisha K.
Thu, 03/01/2012 - 16:41
Permalink
This does not answer my question!
How do you ask for conversation while insulting a group of people at the same time?
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine
live_free_or_die
Thu, 03/01/2012 - 16:50
Permalink
How insulting
TrishK, please believe me when I say I am not insulted.
btw, what school district are you a product of? I am just curious. No offense meant.
Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/
causeandeffect
Thu, 03/01/2012 - 16:55
Permalink
That would be Elan. Don't
That would be Elan. Don't know the district, but the school is well known for it's abuse.
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
Clara
Thu, 03/01/2012 - 17:56
Permalink
Isn't that in Maine? If so,
Isn't that in Maine? If so, Cher's son went there.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
avogadno
Thu, 03/01/2012 - 18:08
Permalink
Maine
Interesting.
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
Clara
Thu, 03/01/2012 - 16:45
Permalink
Did your sponsor ever have
Did your sponsor ever have you read page 188 of the BB?
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
avogadno
Thu, 03/01/2012 - 17:00
Permalink
Religious or Not. Who is lying?
AA and many in AA say that it is not religious, however two courts in the U.S. Judicial System declared that AA engages in "religious activity and religious proselytization".
Proselytize means to convert or attempt to convert.
It's disgusting to to LIE to people when they are sick, confused, and scared. Have you thought of the pressure that AA and some members cause people? Some start to question what is in their heart and soul because of greedy and selfish - LYING dirtbags.
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
AntiDenial
Thu, 03/01/2012 - 17:29
Permalink
Even though when I first came
Even though when I first came in contact with AA and NA, I certainly had many issues with the members. I have to say though, I was pretty shocked at the bold lies they would say to protect each other.
Daytona Beach Fl Narcotics Anonymous members diabolically filed false police reports and told local citizens that they did not sell anything! That was from the NA treasurer of the whole area! Real sick puppies. Also Daytona Beach Fl AA Sunrise Group members filed false police reports too! Some of these people had over 20 years of sobriety. Long time members lying over and over.
Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org
Clara
Thu, 03/01/2012 - 17:34
Permalink
I'll bite. What are the
I'll bite. What are the police reports for? What weren't they selling? I consider NA to be a thoroughly different animal, but your post doesn't make sense.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
alkieanon
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 23:16
Permalink
Just Saying
That is not what the court ruling says:
http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=2268165578140839775&hl=en&as...
"... adherence to the A.A. fellowship entails engagement in religious activity and religious proselytization."
In reality, this court case was about the Alcohol and Substance Abuse Treatment Program (ASAT) at a state correctional facility.
causeandeffect
Thu, 03/01/2012 - 17:16
Permalink
I think one thing that really
I think one thing that really convinced me was knowing what a dirtbag wilson was. If it couldn't make him a better person after his so-called spiritual awakening, that totally explained the lack of change I saw in the people in the rooomz.
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
AntiDenial
Thu, 03/01/2012 - 21:12
Permalink
Lets see- what were they not
Lets see- what were they not selling? NA Literature. The things that NA sells to make money. The treasurer denied they sold anything! Massive Lie. Both AA and NA lied and filed false police reports. It is too long of a story that spans over years. The point was that I have seen in our area Big Liars of 12 step members that I was shocked by. I don't know what is so hard to understand about that. AA/NA members lied, lied and lied again. That was what the discussion is about the lies of 12 steppers.
Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org
Clara
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 07:47
Permalink
Why can't they sell
Why can't they sell literature? Are you suggesting that if these people had a meeting in the park and someone wanted a 15 cent pamphlet, that is a big deal to you? Anti, you are too funny. I wouldn't miss this entertainment for anything...
I met a woman the other day at a park to pick up some Mary Kay products as she lived on the east side and I one the west. I paid her with money at the park. So I should be picked up and fingerprinted for this transaction? If you called the police on something like this, they would double over with laughter. I would probably tell the police the same thing just to avoid harassment form hystericals.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara
Fri, 03/02/2012 - 09:30
Permalink
But maybe they weren't.
But maybe they weren't. Vince reminded me that the 5:30 Beach Group GAVE a BB and a copy of Living Sober to every newcomer.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
live_free_or_die
Thu, 03/01/2012 - 17:36
Permalink
AA's Untruths
AA history says Bill W authored the BB>>> not true
AA history says Bill W was a stockbroker>>> not true
AA history says Bill W talked to ghosts>>> not true
AA says it is not a religion>>> not true
AA says it has the only “treatment” for “alcoholism”>>> not true
AA says if you don’t “Stepit” you will die>>> not true
AA says it will not get involved in “outside” issues>>> not true
AA says it is not about money>>> not true
Another lie - the lobby of the Mayflower - where Bill W was hooked with the proctologist
Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/
Pages