Suicides in AA

btnben's picture
Submitted by btnben on Wed, 02/29/2012 - 10:07

Forums:

Maybe it could be of future use if we had somewhere to collate any reports of AA linked suicide. I thought AA Horror Stories would be the best forum topic for this.

Any stories/links, let's get them all together in one place.

Here's a good starter from Orange's letters.

http://orange-papers.org/orange-letters32.html#suicide_list

mfc66uk

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 11:09

Two people I knew from the rooms attempted suicide- one after being advised to stop medications which she did and became delusional and another who was severely depressed and was doing a step four. People with addictions are prone to mental collapse and suicide as they have often been self medicating for years. Everyone I'd different and requires a suitable recovery programme for them not a one sized fits all piece of faith healing that uses anonymity to avoid responsibility. I am not saying it is always the fault of AA that a member acts to self harm but I do feel that the fragile and those with deep underlying problems are not served well by a programme that says your are incurable, is unsupervised and that allows anyone to give out advice especially to a newcomer. Meetings are often unbalanced by those that are devoted 12 steppers that rely on higher power and those who are more normal in outlook and who would provide good companionship and a more balanced view that may help without the God and dogma crap are often looked upon as those that don't work the programme. Some people will not recover whatever group they join but many need and deserve a lot more than a 12 step solution that is full of people who do not think before they give out advice and then blame someone for not following the suggestions when it goes horribly wrong. I personally found my time in AA to be the most depressing part of my life - I had nothing to take away the pain and the programme was not suitable for me. I am one of the lucky ones who put it behind me and found help elsewhere.

btnben's picture

btnben

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 15:12

I've personally known two people in AA who committed suicide. Both were female. I wonder if there are a higher proportion of women or men committing suicide and, if there is a difference, why?

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 15:17

Can you provide some background?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 11:24

I am glad that you did, too. AA is not for everyone and doesn't claim to be the only path to sobriety.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

btnben

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 11:27

I wonder if AA has a "better" suicide rate than it does a net sobriety rate?

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

AntiDenial

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 11:31

AA has a very high suicide rate, AA has blood on their hands.

Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 11:32

No proof.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

btnben

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 11:34

There's more proof that AA causes suicides than there is that it causes sobriety. Is that enough for you?

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 11:39

No, it isn' because I don't think that just because a person went to AA and offed himself, that makes it an AA suicide. Self-help programs appeal to troubled people. I think troubled people commit suicide, and they would have even if they'd never stepped foot in a room.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 14:12

The first known suicide caused by Bill Wilson and his faith healing was a Canadian lawyer named Bill C. who he was experimenting on at Lois Wilson's parents house at 182 Clinton Street. It happened in the kitchen using the gas stove that contained the same kitchen table that is currently enshrined at the Stepping Stones Compound. Wilson, being the con man and moral degenerate he was, made a martyr of of his death to sell more "Big Books" that he was writing on that very same table.

If you want this cited, it is in one of the books you keep telling people to read.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

btnben's picture

btnben

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 14:42

Would that be down to AA? Open your eyes. Can't you see the con game being played?

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Ironic's picture

Ironic

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 14:57

Rule #1: AA can only be held responsible for it's successes, never it's failures

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causeandeffect

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 15:10

When criticizing AA critical people, make sure it's a projection of yourself.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 15:13

Where does AA claim that? AA isn't responsible for your success and makes no claims.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

btnben

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 15:17

"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover, we completely wash our hands of and deny they were ever in AA"

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 15:21

Welll, it isn't unike people to skew information to suit their purposes. It happens often here. I find it interesting that posters have a hard time believing that just because it didn't owrk for them, that anyone else would be happy with AA. Isn't that rather grandiose? "I wasn't happy (it didn't work for me) so you shouldn't be, either..."

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Ironic's picture

Ironic

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 15:24

You got it right! We are all here because we weren't happy in AA and now we don't want anyone else to be happy either. That is exactly it. We are even working on forming a musical act called "Stepper Slaughter" where we throw red paint on our audience while we rock out to two bass guitars playing really really fast chromatic scales.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 15:32

And that's just the girl band.

Troll free AA critical forum
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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 18:18

But who are you to decide that? Isn't that self-centered and grandiose of you to assume that just because it didn't work for people that don't know people able to retire in their 40s that it couldn't work for others? How funny. You aren't happy and don't want anyone else to be happy, either. Al because it didn't work for you. Can't argue with the selfishness of that.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 18:12

AA didn't work for them so therefore it can't work for any one else.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Sat, 06/30/2012 - 14:52

And you are promoting a death cult in the delusional, but none the less totally self-serving belief that in doing so you are guaranteeing your own sobriety.

Can't argue with the selfishness of that

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 18:18

I believe you want to see happy people. I just don't believe that you are looking at AA through a clear lens right now.
I don't think we (pro AA) want any of you to change your attitude towards AA. I think maybe being less dramatic and more rational would help in our conversations.
Just saying.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

btnben's picture

btnben

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 15:26

"I wasn't happy (it didn't work for me) so you shouldn't be, either..." - sorry Clara - I've searched and you're the only person who's said that on here. Rigorous honesty's slipping...lol.

Everyone's heard you don't agree and you love AA. So what. Is that all you're going to keep saying? Why are you here? Have the faithful set up a rota for "Orange Watch" and it's your week?...lol. I honestly can't understand why you are here?

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 15:42

It's an observation collective of all y'all.

And you know why I am here. You guys kept me going back when I absolutely didn't like the meetings in AA for a variety of reasons. I can't imagine that another's success bothers some so.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

btnben

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 18:09

That's why I asked. Is it a secret? We kept you going back? How was that then? And I'll try again - why are you here? It's not the success that's bothering, it's the presence...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 18:24

Again, because dissenting opinions and all the other things that caused you guys to bolt is what you do to others here. You guys were miserable in the rooms and seem to be just as much here, so how was that a program's fault? I can just see some of you in meetings because I have seen you. Different face, body and country (LOL) but the same all the way. Arms folded, lips out, someone made you come there... and it didn't do anything for you. For some of us, it has. AAs smile and invite those to find their own path if AA doesn't work for them. The argumentative people are you all. I am glad that you helped me see the meetings here in a new light. I didn't like them at al because I kept comparing them to my homegroup in Myrtle Beach. But I compared them with people outside of the program and it sure looks rosier over there. I'll keep letting you all convince me. You've actually encouraged me to look into a great number of things that I never had a reason to check before.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

btnben

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 18:31

Is it because you're happy and you like to convince yourself of that fact by mixing with "miserable" people. Looking for reinforcement Clara? "I'm happier than you, so there" - not very spiritual is it Clara? You sound a bit like that "whistling in the dark" fellow in the BB. "I must be happy - what will the others think". That's the kind of bullshit we left. Can you not understand how people can get a little peeved when the smell of it follows you around?

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 18:34

That would be called spiritual gigantism, ben.

Troll free AA critical forum
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btnben

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 18:36

......... I thought it was a compliment...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 18:52

Ben why are you so obsessed with Clara being here and people talking to me. I think we have a very interesting conversation going on here tonight for a change. Many different sides to the debate have spoken. To have inputs from Johnny, Becket, Penny, JR, Cause, Avocado ect.....was genuinely gratifying tonight. We won ben this is exactly what we always wanted. We wanted everyone to come to the table if for just a moment and talk like adults. Though you tried very hard to troll the conversation it happen anyway.
Orange I congratulate you on your vision, it happened tonight.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

btnben's picture

btnben

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 18:57

You're on your own. Always have been, always will be. Stop being so desperate and trying to fir in. It's embarrassing...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

AntiDenial

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 19:10

Clara offered NOTHING but to keep trying to keep the lethal force of AA in force. Would never admit to anything that AA has done to assist in suicides of it's members. Without her, it would of been less heartbreaking and gut wrenching reality to the sick minds of some 12 steppers.

Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 19:18

To tell you anything other than what I think would be to lie to you, Anti.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 19:04

"Trisha K.
Wed, 02/29/2012 - 18:52

Ben why are you so obsessed with Clara being here and people talking to me. I think we have a very interesting conversation going on here tonight for a change. Many different sides to the debate have spoken. To have inputs from Johnny, Becket, Penny, JR, Cause, Avocado ect.....was genuinely gratifying tonight. We won ben this is exactly what we always wanted. We wanted everyone to come to the table if for just a moment and talk like adults. Though you tried very hard to troll the conversation it happen anyway.
Orange I congratulate you on your vision, it happened tonight."

I fail to see the "WIN"..............

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 18:56

I posted to you about it after the Monday evening meeting. Did you miss it? If you are happier now than you were, boy howdy! LOL! I've gotten alot out of all of this. I can't imagine being so irritated that someone else could be happy in a program that did nothing for you. It doesn't work for everyone, so why not just be glad that it has for some?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 18:32

I'm glad you found something of value here, Clara. Does that mean you'll be returning to meetings again soon?

Troll free AA critical forum
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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 18:51

I did go back and I posted about it here after the Monday meeting. You must have missed it.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 18:38

What do you mean?

If I wasn't told repeatedly to go to meetings, work the steps and get a sponsor because I would die or live a miserable life if I didn't, I wouldn't have wasted 5 years trying. I faked it and never made it. Tried different meetings, different sponsors. I prayed their way and prayed for what I was told to because AA is unregulated and sponsors and members can lie and say whatever the hell they want. Doctors told me this too. And counselors. You know the drill, you have heard this before.

Yes, I'm angry because I wasted my life and nearly died trying to do what I was told would save me. It was a lie. It's my life. So yes. I'm angry angry angry. And I found out that many people went through a similar experience. It's spiritually abusive to tell people what to pray for and how to pray. It's spiritually abusive to tell people what our own HP wants (should) want for us. Please start trying to think from the your point of view and the happiness that you found. At least while you are here. If people are happy doing the program that's fine. Glad someone is happy and no we (I) don't want to take that away. Just don't shove it down people's throats. Don't lie. Mabye you aren't lying and wasn't lied to. But can you for a minute understand what it is like to have this happen???

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 18:49

Sponsors, doctors and counselors... yet the angry denominator is you. STILL you. I AM thinking from my point of view and the happiness that I have found. I am sorry that the experience was not the same for you, but it sounds as if you've taken other routes as well and are still the angry person. So where are we now?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

btnben

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 18:55

Is that like the "naughty step"? What is it with these steppers and anger? In 25 years I could never come to grips with that one. "You raped my daughter, did you. Well, I'm not going to get angry. I'm going to look for my part in it". What horseshit they preach...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 18:59

Hardly a like example. You'll have to come up with something else.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

btnben

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 19:02

English is the default on here. What do you mean? "like example" what - as apposed to "dislike example"????? Why do I have to come up with something else? No explanation, just a command. I recognise the style...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 19:06

Being angry at AA isn't the same thing as your daughter was raped, so what was your role in it. AA certainly recognizes justifiable anger. I think the conversation is digressing into silliness.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

gigi

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 18:56

Honestly Clara, if you were really, truly as gosh darned, super-duper happy as you say you are you wouldn't feel the need to spend all day trying to convince others to come toward the light. I don't understand why you're wasting your time here when you could be at a meeting being happy, joyous and free.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

btnben's picture

btnben

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 18:59

As usual...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 19:04

I am not trying to convince you of anything. Not once have I ever suggested that you try it again or maybe the room was just weird. If you have a way that works for you, fine. AA is mine, but I would invite and encourage anyone to take their own path. What makes you think I haven't been to a meeting? I didn't see any of the anger and hostility I do here. This has been educational and entertaining, so I'll stay. Knowing what's "out there" is what will keep me in AA. Thank you.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

gigi

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 19:10

Ok. I think I understand your logic now. I should go to AA meetings every day to remind me what it's like in the rooms and that will help me to stay away from AA. Right?

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 13:31

Hey, I didn't like the meetings here in El Paso at a. I read something on the internet that linked to OP, so I came here. Believe me, the angst and frustration felt by those that went on to "other" ways to get sober has convinced me that AA is the fit for me. I've learned alot on OP. I agree with alot that Orange has to say, but not that AA is not for me! It's not for you, and that's okay.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 19:18

Being angry isn't a sin. Besides, I'm happier now than I was years in AA. Giving up trying to work the program that wouldn't work wasthe best thing that I decided to do. And I am angry too. Yes it's my problem and it drives me to spread the word that AA is a fake religion, not a recovery group. I'll also be around for others that have experience the same thing. If it wasn't for the groups on the web that were here to support me when I left the bubble, than I'd still be miserable listening to the billshit and thinking I was the only one.

I may be the denominator but it is they that lied and continue to lie. I don't have that on my shoulders. When they start telling the truth and AA disapears or changes, than I will stop too. If we all stopped being angry and upset and let it continue w/out a fight than nothing would change. The truth would never be told.

The good news as I can read and I can write, and then leave this all behind and live my life. When I come back I'll get angry again but I'm thankfully free from nesting that XA tried to permanently burden me with.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 19:22

But you aren't leaving it behind. You are still sitting in it.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

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