The Daily Bitch 24th February 2012

A couple of us were talking about this last night and I thought I'd give it a go.

In recent weeks a pattern has evolved where, each day, a specific blog/forum topic seems to get the majority of post traffic, often getting severely off topic. This is causing that thread to fill up and become rather difficult to navigate.

A proposed solution was to set up a "Daily Bitch" page each day where people can take topics that arise without creating a separate blog/forum entry. Should the interest subsequently be there everyone is a liberty to create a new thread whenever they like. Hopefully existing threads will then remain more pertinent to their original topic.

Additionally, should Orange ever need to do any administrative culling of old posts, these will stand out as being redundant after the date.

I see this place as somewhere where old, off-topic discussions can go to die and new threads be born...lol

Comments

Thanks, Ben. I'm all in.

So, how is everyone today? (That really wasn't a bitch, but hey...)

But it seemed like a good idea to have somewhere where you can...lol

New day dawned? Nearly 5pm here - weekend's begun...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Thanks Ben !

"I welcome all allies in the fight against A.A. hegemony" -Orange

www.leavingaa.com

NA DAYTONA- Violent Criminals Being Mandated to AA and NA Meetings
http://nadaytona.org/alcoholics-anonymous-votes-no-to-protect-members-from...

How does it help to constantly remember how incredibly low you were at your "bottom"? I just ask this because it's not only a common theme in meetings, but it seems sometimes to also be with people you know from any recovery circles. Does this bother anyone else, or has anyone else experienced this? I got a call last night from this guy who sometimes calls from that last rehab I was at, and while he is staunchly anti-aa (though he is court ordered to go), conversations with him frequently veer into that same territory. The comments on how completely messed up I was in rehab. Well, no shit. It doesn't offend me that he says it, it's just the whole general theme.

Don't know, that was the tone of the comments at the two meetings I hit also, not just people commenting, "Wow, you were SOOOO messed up" but talking constantly of their own extreme lows--even if they happened in the early 1980s. I realize this is hardly news to anyone here, and it also bothered me the entire time, but even more now I know that I don't want to recount those days (what I remember of them, that is) ever. Certainly as the only discussion of my "recovery" that ever happens.

Trisha K.'s picture

Identification most of the time and at other times a moment to vent.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

Clara's picture

My bottom wasn't especially bad by the standards of our group, but people try to remember the bad times because the good times (and there were many. I had fun partying for a number of years) start sounding possible again. That is why you hear remarks about keeping your last experince green or fresh. And it also serves to show newcomers that they can recover to a prosperous loving life again. I had meetings in a halfway house where these people had nothing and were starting from scratch. My homegroup was a group of people that had used the program to recover life to a large degpree. Many had recovered their former financial status, repaired broken marriages and relationships, went on to advance their schooing after dropping out... Of course, you were messed up. We all were! No HEALTHY person ends up in rehab or at the door of an AA clubhouse. Instead of comparing you, I wish he would focus on how messed up HE was...

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Are there any vacancies on the bottom judging committee?...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

LOL. I don't think so. I think that got figured out in the 50's when it was discovered that you didn't have to end up under a bridge to have an alcohol problem. My grandmother actually AA on my GF and they asked her guestions and said he wasn't an acoholic because they were still acting on the belief that you had to be a bum. He owned a car dealership, paid his bills, maintained his financial life... But it was because of those things that he could then pay peope to work at the dealership and he could drink.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

I understand that, and it's also probably very different for drinking. I have a gigantic mark against me in the eyes of the local NAers, they obsess whenever we talk about how messed up I was, and how I was messed up at some of the meetings I attended. The thing is, I was messed up...but on a new anti-seizure med that was really, really affecting me (not that they don't usually hit people like that).

Jeez, I know it was bad. I was bad. But it wasn't entirely drug related...lol...I can say that here, but there it means I'm in denial and that I should confess all...until I do, then I'm in denial. Does a dog ever catch the tail he's chasing? That's the main sentiment it leaves me with. But none of these people who want me to step into the confessional are asking me to do something they don't do on a nightly basis, and if that's what it takes to keep them clean, more power to them. I'm just so happy I am no longer subjected to it when it's really not my choice to be.

I think it is rude and inconsiderate to bring up negative things in the past in that manner. People need to be able to get on with there life. Put the past in the past. Move forward. I think it makes them feel better by bringing up someones negative past, especially if they have got on with their lives in a positive way.

"I welcome all allies in the fight against A.A. hegemony" -Orange

www.leavingaa.com

NA DAYTONA- Violent Criminals Being Mandated to AA and NA Meetings
http://nadaytona.org/alcoholics-anonymous-votes-no-to-protect-members-from...

Ironic's picture

Of going over your past with someone you trust (A LICENSED THERAPIST/PSYCHOLOGIST/SOCIAL WORKER not some crummy addiction counselor) and then letting it rest.

I don't understand why working the steps multiple times is supposed to do anything.

Clara's picture

The steps work in tandem. I did my fifth step a professional. But I also did it for privacy reasons. Where I got sober, I became friends with scores of people, went to similar meetings with them, invited them out on my boat... Sometimes confidentiality got lost... What I chose to share in meetings at large, I didn't care that anyone knew. Some of my more personal things, I did... The step says to share it with God and another person. It doesn't have to be an open book for everyone...

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Ironic's picture

Of a daily bitch thread.

I feel it is important to have some goals in life that will improve you. If you move towards them, over time the past will become less important. Aa kept me in the past and kept me in the problem. You are always reminded of drinking and rock bottoms, infact the lower you said you sank and the more you publicly humiliated yourself the more AA credibility you gained. I do not see this as a great way to recover and I don't define my self as an alcoholic in public on a daily basis any more because I have moved on over the years and have a new and better life. There is so much more to me today than being an ex drunk but whenever I meet with anyone I knew from AA it is only the drink and the program they seem to want to talk about. I think you have to rebuild self esteem and get your past life in perspective to move forward.

When your drinking, alcohol is a big part of your life. When you stop drinking it isn't - simple as that. Continually reminding yourself of a past that is nothing like the present just doesn't make any sense. Sitting and listening to the same people saying the same things over and over and over and OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN IS JUST GOING TO SEND YOU BAT SHIT CRAZY!!!!!!!!!

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

..

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

I agree completely, self esteem is the thing almost everyone I've ever met in recovery had none of. When I went back to meetings or ever talk to anyone still in the program, it is hard to miss that they are the people still trapped in self-hatred. Now that's just my experience, I'm sure it varies greatly.

I started out with very few goals and gradually moved them up. Now I hold myself to a very, very high standard, but that's also something that was discouraged by xAs and addiction counselors I knew. I didn't want to feel any more different from the general population than I already felt, honestly.

Sorry, I'm rehashing a lot here today, just stuff that's been on my mind again.

I'm curious as to what the bombshell was that she got the boot? She was a tyrant from the start. What was it that finally caused the bubble to burst and got orange to ban her?

Sorry if this was discussed in another thread already and I missed it. :=)

Pro Empowerment!

Good question. FYI- Clara is now Marietta. I hope she gets rebanned. I know shortly before she was banned she was pretty vulgar and nasty. More people were complaining about her as well. So it seems like it came to a head with her and Danny.

"I welcome all allies in the fight against A.A. hegemony" -Orange

www.leavingaa.com

NA DAYTONA- Violent Criminals Being Mandated to AA and NA Meetings
http://nadaytona.org/alcoholics-anonymous-votes-no-to-protect-members-from...

Clara's picture

Anti, you are just simply trying fan something that doesn't exist. Did you hear? I am also Carrie Fisher according to pictorial evidence - LOL! I read a couple of Marietta's posts on an NA blog. I really cannot believe that you thought I was she.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Clara,

Whenever an AA or pro-AA comes to the OPF, the same things usually occur. They always feel as they have to explain the program to us, as if we’re random people that just have the wrong idea. I’d like to point out that most of us are former members ourselves, and that we have been to hundreds of meetings or more. In other words, we know the program backward and forward. The last thing we want (and need) is a Know-It-All Stepper that thinks she’s going pull up the shades and brighten our day, making us aware of how profoundly wonderful AA is....Not!

Persephone, (correct me if I’m wrong, Perse), was being rhetorical. She wasn’t really asking why bottoms are discussed, she was bringing up a topic: the absurd extreme of which bottoms and negative pasts are focused on in AA.

My opinion is that recognizing and remembering the awful times can be an important deterrent to drinking again in the future. It’s a good tactic, “Hey don’t forget that”. However AA does this to an extreme, and I think it’s because the founders didn’t give a rats ass about people drinking again. They used it as an excuse to get what they really wanted: For members and prospects to focus on their bad tidings (sin), with hope that they will feel more of a need for God and follow through with a religious conversion.

That’s it. And it is a cruel game that they started and what guru members continue to play. They Fuck with people's lives.

Pro Empowerment!

....but also based on the recent personal experience with people in recovery (meetings or not) who cannot seem to accept that either I or them are no longer at bottom.

I do get that too, and I recognize that it is probably different with drinking than with drugs. I can understand trying to reinforce that just a bit more with alcohol, as we see people drinking moderately in every area of life, from television to going out to dinner. I don't really understand that constant reminder so much when it comes to bottoms from other substances.

Not saying I completely understand with alcohol either, but I do see the point slightly more than with, say, opiates.

Clara's picture

I don't know if this relates to your topic but I have a girlfriend who is back off and running with a man that she swore she was done with. He took her for money, to live with and not to contribute, abused her emotionally and physcially... I worked with her for a long time to move on from him by reminding her how bad he had treated her, pulled from her friends or any other support, that she worked while he played, was hi advocate while he was in jail, etc... You get the drift. I was trying to keep those experiences fresh to her while all she could think of were whatever good times there were. She hadn't reached her bottom with this guy, i.e. the end of her endurance... or willingness to participate.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Clara's picture

That may be true, but I don't think that I have done that. I have relayed my experiences. I have had anyone answer the question I have had as to what kind of time they had, although I was asked. It's unfair to ask something of someone without willingness to dsclose yourself. I think taht Perse was asking a question to create a topic, and I answered based on what her question said to me. That's okay.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

causeandeffect's picture

Clara, it was me who asked how long you’d been in AA. It was an attempt to determine if you were Marietta or not, as she’s the type who’d probably claim more time to boost her credibility. Your 5 years is nice and modest—unMarietta like. There are a couple reasons why I haven’t answered your question. One is we have a “keep coming back” troll. He will use any personal information he can to discredit. If you have a year or two, you don’t have enough time to know what you’re talking about. Really by about 6 months, you’ve pretty much seen all AA has to offer. If you have a few decades, he’ll say there’s something wrong with you because of the fact it took so long to decide there’s something wrong. Another reason I don’t want to answer that question is that I, and many here, find the whole idea of “time” in the rooms translating into some kind of wisdom a logical fallacy. I’m sorry if I asked a question that was unfair.

"The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
~Dresden James

Clara's picture

You know, there are plenty of people I've met in the fellowship that have a ton of years, yet I have wondered... "what have you done with your time in here?" They seem so unchanged from what they describe themselves as having been... I guess it is not up to me to judge, but some seem so angry, you have to wonder what they were like when they were boozing it up. Ben said it on another blog that once a thug, always a thug. I don't really believe that you have to stay a thug if you can grow. But that is also a choice. I know people inthe fellowship who have never done any step work. They put the drink down and that is it. And to an extent, that is fine, I guess, but I think it is unfair to those around you. It's like, "okay, I am not drinking, It's a new day" without taking into account that our behavior in our drunk days caused real hurt and harm to people that are owed apologies and reparations. I can understand the people in those families that wonder, "Okay, so AA helped them stay off booze, but is life necessarily better?"

In MB, people would readily disclose how much time they have. I guess it is bad form here in Texas. No one talks about sobriety dates or "time in grade" so to speak.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

When I made that comment, I meant that, whatever you were like before you started drinking heavily is probably what you.re going to be like now. Drink makes even the sanest person unpredictable. I would never equate a drunk to a sober person - they're just not equal in any way.

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

causeandeffect's picture

They seem so unchanged from what they describe themselves as having been... I guess it is not up to me to judge, but some seem so angry, you have to wonder what they were like when they were boozing it up.

I totally agree with you Clara, but the one's I've known have done step work. I just don't feel it's adequate to resolve people's issues. The big book pretty much prohibits anger, but it doesn't give anyone any way to properly deal with anger, so they just stuff it. All that repressed anger comes out in inappropriate ways. I feel people need sound psychological principles to work out their issues, instead of religious indoctrination borrowed from a cult from the 1930's by a dishonest narcissist. His stereotype of the alcoholic is merely a projection of his own faults and has no basis in reality. The problem is that you have a bunch of people who don't know themselves without the drink. When they assume his projection, that is what they become, rather than their natural selves. It's a bad mojo.

"The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
~Dresden James

Clara's picture

I would agree with not knowing yourself without the use of whatever it is that you use as your coping mechanism or whatever. I am not the same person with the drink as I am without. And I needed help figuring everything out. I had a number of women in the fellowship that became de facto sisters to me. I didn't relate too much to Bill's story, but I do buy the idea that our use of whatevers simply is a symptom of other issues. If you resolve those issues, perhaps the drink won't be something you consider necessary.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

I was trying, actually, to start a topic. Don't sweat it. I was also completely joking about the Carrie Fisher thing, based on the pic of her with Clancy that was posted. I know the defensiveness must seem weird to people new to this forum who don't know about the prior trolling extravaganza here, it's just that, well, to know Marietta is to really despise her.

Clara's picture

Well, it wasn't you, anyway, my dear, that disputed the photo I submitted and then followed up with photos of Clancy with two movie stars, claiming our hair was the same. We told the poster who that woman was, and I think the poster honestly wanted to belive it when it should have been clear that we wre two different women. I somehow doubt that Carrie wears the occasional blosue from Costco... I just don't have a reason to lie about who I am, and I feel that I have been very forthcoming with all information, only to also have my husband ridiculed. I have accepted the apologies offered and would like to move on.

I'm sorry that you had the experience you did in NA. It sounds awful, but I have firneds in AA who had secondary problems with alcohol, but just couldn't hack NA. I guess AA is a softer, gentler approach than NA, but they are cautioned to confine their remarks to the alcohol side of their issues. And I think that is fair. So many young people come in today with problems with everything that I wonder if there are people that are addicted to solely one thing.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

I think it's important for me to remember how low I was at the end of my drinking. I don't think I can afford to forget how much misery and pain I was in and how much pain I put my family through. It's something that I acknowledge and pause to think about on a regular basis. It helps motivate me to continue moving forward, live well, and be of value to those I love.
Constantly talking about the lowest of the low points, reliving my bottom or dwelling on what is was like then is counterproductive. It can't be healthy to sit in that crap for the rest of your life. I don't understand the value of going to meetings year after year after year telling the same story again and again. Aren't we supposed to learn from the past then use that knowledge to make a better future? It's like Ground Hog Day (the movie) in those meetings. Same shit, diffrent day.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

Not to mention those same readings at the beginning of EVERY meeting, mind numbing. After 500 or so meetings they really began to raise a big red flag. I never understood how wallowing in ones former bad behavior for eternity was helping anything or anyone. The same people, the same stories, I was finished listening long before these people were finished talking. Most of these people have traded one addiction for another, meetings.....ugh!

Ironic's picture

I totally get what you're sayin, as usual.

I watch a show on TV called "The First 48." It is a reality show on A&E about murders. Actually, a lot of them occur in Miami, in neighborhoods (or in one case, down the street) from the block I would sometimes cop heroin on. Most of these murders are drug related, I'd say. So I watch this show, partly I think to see the families cry hysterically. Sometimes it makes me cry, but I need to watch it.

I also watch Law & Order: SVU. I actually couldn't finish this week's episode..they were digging up dead hookers on the beach. I have had a few experiences that really should have ended that way, and miraculously did not. I do not know why some women are kidnapped and raped and murdered, and some are just kidnapped and raped.

Maybe it is a little sick, but seeing all this reminds me that though I am not super popular, I have some amazing people in my life. If I die this way, I will destroy their lives..I could have destroyed their lives. I think that severely cuts down on the amount of stupid shit I seriously consider doing.

live_free_or_die's picture

..."It can't be healthy to sit in that crap for the rest of your life." It ain't!

In a nutshell. Plain and simple.

Clara's picture

There is a difference between sitting in crap and using the experience constructively. There is also the feeling that if you talk about those things, they lose whatever power over you they might have had, and perhaps you can use it to help someone else.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

I agree that there is a difference between sitting in crap and using the experience constructively. My point is that repeatedly giving your drunkalog in a room full of people doesn't allow you to move on and use your experience in a truly meaningful way. I see a huge distinction between repeatedly reliving all of the horrible things that came out of drinking/using and having a meaningful, productive dialogue with another human being. Meetings are movie theaters and everyone has a role to play. At the end of the day, it gets us nowhere.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

Clara's picture

I have never done that. I haven't gotten up and been a speaker at a meeting. I tell the truth about my past experiences and sharing it has certainly helped me come to grips with and to accept how utterly irresponsible and hurtful I had been in so many respects. But it also taught me that I could learn from it, forgive myself and not continue to feel pain over it. And none of that means that I didn't accept responsibility for it.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Yes, there is a big difference. Admittedly, I have yet to see the constructive use of it in an actual meeting, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen somewhere. I personally prefer to use my experience in my own head or with a therapist.....I'm already embarrassed continuously when I do think of some of the things I did, for me it just made it worse to share it constantly.

Clara's picture

Yes... and I quite frankly would prefer my husband not be privy to some of the garbage I was capable as a drunk woman. There are things I share in a women's meeting that I wouldn't want out there for general consumption, and it isn't as if you have to disclose everything. I was in a room once talking about how I had a life that I thought was pretty typical of the drunk woman, and I woke up occasionally with the odd man... A giuy shouted that it was only because the EVEN numbered guys left while I was still asleep... I'm still trying to remember if I laugh - or just wondered if it was really true?! LOL!

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

"Thank heaven for leeeetle girls......"...lol

This guy would probably get arrested today...lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRnbtRPC6v4&feature=related

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

It amazes me when I hear leaders of meetings at our park meetings, telling their story over and over and over.

It really seems pathological. How many times can you say you got drunk every day, did this horrible deed and that horrible deed and then seem to be actually bragging? I feel sorry for the people who are mandated to sit through really boring meetings. It is like mandated torture. Hearing the steps being repeated, blah, blah , blah.

Then when I have talked to 12 steppers about complaints about meetings in the park, the most common theme is that the members just dont understand the steps. Lord have mercy- There are only 12 steps!!!!

After talking about them. Actually doing them and living your life by them- you would think they would get it. It strikes me as pretty bad when you cant even get the 12 steps straight.

"I welcome all allies in the fight against A.A. hegemony" -Orange

www.leavingaa.com

NA DAYTONA- Violent Criminals Being Mandated to AA and NA Meetings
http://nadaytona.org/alcoholics-anonymous-votes-no-to-protect-members-from...

live_free_or_die's picture

....couldn't get the steps straight.....ended up with a DUI : )

it is one thing not getting the steps staight in the first place or not agreeing with them. Ir is another to have supposedly have them done pat-but still dont really get it.

"I welcome all allies in the fight against A.A. hegemony" -Orange

www.leavingaa.com

NA DAYTONA- Violent Criminals Being Mandated to AA and NA Meetings
http://nadaytona.org/alcoholics-anonymous-votes-no-to-protect-members-from...

Clara's picture

Well, the literature does say that there is only one step that must be done perfectly. The others can be progress...

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Admitting that we are powerless over alcohol is the first problem for me. If we don't accept the responsibility for our decisions and exert the will to make the proper decisions than we are doomed. We are powerless over things that just happen in our lives, but ingesting alcohol is not one of those things that just happens. So I personally believe the best way to work step one is never to buy into that lie that illeviates us from the responsibility of our decisions. I think it is very dangerous to buy into the disease, powerless bit.

Clara's picture

The way I understood it is that if I can't guarantee my behavior after that first drink... that is the powerlessness. And I really couldn't at the end there. Once I started, it was off to the races. But I had control if I decided to take that first one. I've decided not to for five years.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

I do agree with that, I too after the first one am off to the races. Its funny how we always thought " this time it will be different" but it never was. Today, I am not powerless over that first one anyway,and I have given up on the illusion that it will be any different than it ever was. I can't drink successfully, never could, just took 35 years to figure that one out. Lol

Pennywise's picture

The way I understood it is that if I can't guarantee my behavior after that first drink... that is the powerlessness. And I really couldn't at the end there. Once I started, it was off to the races. But I had control if I decided to take that first one. I've decided not to for five years.

You need to read your Big Book. You're working an ego driven program under your facade of having control. I recommend starting with "More About Alcoholism."

Have you listened to your Arnold ZeDVille today?
http://www.reverbnation.com/arnoldzedville/songs

Pennywise's picture

Clare needs to work a better program.

Clare said: "But I had control if I decided to take that first one. I've decided not to for five years."

The Big Book says:

You may think this an extreme case. To us it is not far-fetched, for this kind of thinking has been characteristic of every single one of us. We have sometimes reflected more than Jim did upon the consequences. But there was always the curious mental phenomenon that parallel with our sound reasoning there inevitably ran some insanely trivial excuse for taking the first drink. Our sound reasoning failed to hold us in check. The insane idea won out. Next day we would ask ourselves, in all earnestness and sincerity, how it could have happened. pg 37

Our behavior is as absurd and incomprehensible with respect to the first drink as that of an individual with a passion, say, for jay-walking. pg 37

Not only had I been off guard, I had made no fight whatever against the first drink. This time I had not thought of the consequences at all. I had commenced to drink as carelessly as though the cocktails were ginger ale. I now remembered what my alcoholic friends had told me, how they prophesied that if I had an alcoholic mind, the time and place would come - I would drink again. pg 41-42

Once more: The alcoholic at certain times has no effective mental defense against the first drink. Except in a few rare cases, neither he nor any other human being can provide such a defense. His defense must come from a Higher Power. pg 43

They had said that though I did raise a defense, it would one day give way before some trivial reason for having a drink. Well, just that did happen and more, for what I had learned of alcoholism did not occur to me at all. I knew from that moment that I had an alcoholic mind. I saw that will power and self-knowledge would not help in those strange mental blank spots. pg 41

Have you listened to your Arnold ZeDVille today?
http://www.reverbnation.com/arnoldzedville/songs

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