I am paraphrasing all of quotes to stay away from speaking AA.
The most dangerous chapter in the Big Book is Chapter 7 (not a very lucky number) is entitled "WORKING WITH OTHERS" pages 89 to 103. This is the chapter that is studied heavily by a stepper so they can become a Sponsor. They will underline phrases in it to understand how they can make someone a permanent member of AA. If you have a sponsor you may want to find out what passages they have underlined to access how they got into your life and the tactics they used.
Pg. 89
* Start helping other Alcoholics so that it can help in your recovery.
* Secure their confidence.
* Alcoholics are are very ill.
* Have frequent contact with newcomers.
* If you can not find any Alcoholics to save go to doctors, ministers, priests or hospitals. They will be more than happy to assist you.
* You are only trying to be helpful (notice the contradiction from the first key point)
Pg. 90
* Discover a Prospect.
* Find out all about them (research)
* If there is any indication that they want to join AA talk to the spouse. (research through the family)
* Find out his background, behavior, problems and religious affiliation.(Research prospect)
* Use this information to formulate a plan to get them to join. (Decide how to get them to join AA)
* Wait until they go on a binge to contact them. (They are vulnerable at this stage)
* Make them believe you are the only one that can help them.
* Make hints to the family on how to handle him, leave a BB where they can find it. (leave bait for the new prospect)
Pg. 91
* Urge the family to not be over anxious that might spoil yor plans. (getting the family envolved again)
* Usually the best person to get involved is a doctor or institution (try to get them into rehab)
* If he gets to rehab, try and see him when he is thier still jittery (he's vulnerable, you put him there and make sure you are he realizes you are his only way out.)
* See your prospect alone if possible. (No one to interfere and no witnesses)
* Get him to tell you some of his drinking stories (more research)
Pg. 92
* Tell him you are an alcoholic and understand him. (gain their confidence)
* If you decide they are an Alcoholic continue (you have found a good prospect)
* Tell them that they have a fatal disease and doctors won't tell them that (they have you alone and no witnesses)
* Hopefully their Doctor will tell them they are an alcoholic (if the Doctor that you actually sent him to agrees the better)
Pg. 93
* Tell him about yourself (alone and gain his confidence)
* Stress Spirituality (get him to join AA)
* Tell him its Spiritual and not Religious (bait and switch, confuse him with terms)
* Tell him about a Higher Power (stress its not religious)
* Tell him they can use their own Religion if they have one (obvious contradiction from above)
Pg. 94
* Outline a plan of action on trying to make them to join AA (Planning next steps)
* Tell him your doing this to help your recovery (play on his empathy)
* Tell him it will make everyone around him happy. (play on his empathy)
* Let them rebel if they want to (don't push, you have him on the hook good)
* Try to lend him a copy of your book . (leave bait for the new prospect)
Pg. 95
* Let the prospect think about it for a while (give him some line so you can set the hook real good)
* Let him go on a few more binges, he'll come back after he hurts for a while. (wait to set the hook)
* Hopefully he will find God (religion)
* Tell him that if he does not join he will face the consequences (death)
Pg. 96
* If your prospect doesn't take the hook, its OK just go find another prospect, (take your time, they'll come crawling back)
* If they come back make sure they read the book (give out more bait)
* Don't give any money any kind of aid unless you can afford it (AA doesn't pay it's new salesmen anything)
Pg. 97
* If the prospect doesn't bite on his own try and get him to hit bottom and get him committed to a rehab.( go the doctor route)
* Be nice to the family and let them know you are there to help.(get to them through the family)
Pg. 98
Sorry I can't finish outlining this piece. These last 5 pages outline how to get them to believe in GOD and play with them and their families more.This is the most vile document I have ever read.
Clara
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 17:59
Permalink
Don't bet the farm, Cause.
Don't bet the farm, Cause.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Ironic
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 17:36
Permalink
@AntiD
I am now infinitely more willing to explore the definite possibility that Clara = marietta
AntiDenial
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 17:42
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Better late than never :)
Better late than never :)
Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org
AntiDenial
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 17:42
Permalink
Better late than never :)
Better late than never :)
Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org
Ironic
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 18:25
Permalink
Better late
I hadn't realized md had been banned! Now that I know that..well, duh :-P I think we all at least thought it, but our BS detectors just aren't as finely tuned as yours. Bravo!!
And cheers Orange for the troll smackdown. I would like it if he made a short blog/forum post just talking about why he chose to change his mind about the banning (from his own special perspective).
AntiDenial
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 18:29
Permalink
Thank you, Thank you. I
Thank you, Thank you. I second kudos to Orange! Keep up the good work-just keep it up!
Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org
Clara
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 18:39
Permalink
I think Orange would be able
I think Orange would be able to tell easily that I am a new, authentic subscriber.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Ironic
Wed, 05/02/2012 - 16:07
Permalink
Do you still think Clara = marietta
If that picture really is Clara, I can't picture marietta with that hair. That is just me though. Maybe the weed is making me overthink things haha
Clara
Wed, 05/02/2012 - 16:35
Permalink
I am fortunate to have any
I am fortunate to have any hair . It is still growing out.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
causeandeffect
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 15:49
Permalink
No. This is the first time
No. This is the first time you've answered the question. I think you should be able to point me in the right direction of where I can find these things you say. Or at least a chapter?
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
Clara
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 15:53
Permalink
I have already addressed this
I have already addressed this, my dear. If you aren't willing to do your own homework, why should anyone do it for you? Aren't you the one that could have been knocked over by a feather with the disclosure that AA was for alcoholics? I get some of you mixed up.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
btnben
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 15:56
Permalink
That clinches it
She's getting stroppy, and all of a sudden the typos disappear...lol. I wonder if she'll go back and edit some in...lol
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
Clara
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 15:58
Permalink
I am using my husband's
I am using my husband's computer, silly boy. All of his keys work - LOL!
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
btnben
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 16:00
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silly boy
No longer Clarietta, definitely Marietta...lol
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
Clara
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 16:02
Permalink
Nope, still Clara! And happy
Nope, still Clara! And happy to be so. I can't imagine spending time speculating, but that is normal in blogland when anyone new shows up. I may not welcome the ideas... but I always welcome the people.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
causeandeffect
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 16:15
Permalink
My gawd!
She DID learn from diablo!
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
causeandeffect
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 16:17
Permalink
Oops
I meant to say butt plug ignorant danny.
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
Clara
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 16:24
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I think it was Bill W.
I think it was Bill W.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
AntiDenial
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 17:00
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The typos were even an
The typos were even an obvious attempt to deceive that Marietta could not stand not instigating and challenging every remark made by turning herself into Clara. You guys are gullible, just sayin......
Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org
Persephone In Exile
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 17:13
Permalink
Yeah, typos and the
Yeah, typos and the suggestion that someone in AA fell in love with her.....
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
Ironic
Wed, 05/02/2012 - 16:09
Permalink
Please define "stroppy"
Google defines it as:
Definition for stroppy:
Web definitions:
bolshy: obstreperous.
So..please define stroppy lol
Persephone In Exile
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 15:41
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Anti, thanks for a literal
Anti, thanks for a literal LOL.
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
Clara
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 15:54
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LOL is right. I imagine that
LOL is right. I imagine that he's never read anything Bill ever wrote.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
AntiDenial
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 17:02
Permalink
Anytime, Anytime.....Like to
Anytime, Anytime.....Like to bring laughter when I can.
Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org
btnben
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 15:21
Permalink
Reality or........?
"She's essentially jealous that her father went to to beat his demons and create a good life for himself. Despite entreaties to her, she continues to shut him out an begrudge that he has a new family and a nice life with people that know him as he is now."
Are these your observations and conclusions or are they backed up with actual facts?
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
Clara
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 15:35
Permalink
Backed up by numerous late
Backed up by numerous late night calls, lunches and happy hours with XX. You can imagine how angry she was when I joined the fellowship and could see the circumstance from another perspective. But the fact is that I always did see his side because I have always believed that people can change. But it has nothin to do with AA or CA. If he'd joined a church and found his path that way, she would have problems with that.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Persephone In Exile
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 15:49
Permalink
Perhaps it's no more
Perhaps it's no more complicated than finding a fellowship, Clara. People who go through something sometimes like to get together to talk about it. To have something in common with others. Happens with substance abuse, happens with trauma, happens with people who share an experience in 12 step groups that is comprised of that and at least one of the previous two.
There is activism too, but sometimes it is merely what people in xA claim to find. Fellowship.
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
Clara
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 15:57
Permalink
That's exactly right.
That's exactly right. Fellowship is what does it for me. I feel badly for her because she basically wants the same thing. He found the acceptance in his life, and she still continues to look for it. But her acceptance of him is no longer as important to him as it once was. He tried to make amends and to apologize for being the less than stellar example of paternity that he had been... but he's also moved on from it. He's "cleaned his side of the street" as far as he is concerned... It's sad, but I imagine there are a lot of alcoholic homes that have the same leftovers.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
gigi
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 16:49
Permalink
Leftovers
Miss Clara, I do believe that you just referred to your friend as a leftover. Glad to hear her father cleaned his side of the street as "far as he is concerned..." That's what amends is all about in AA, right? Making oneself feel better. Moving onward and upward. That is not an amends-that is letting yourself off the hook. Thanks for illustrating one of the little things that really piss me off about AA.
"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."
gigi
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 16:53
Permalink
or maybe
she just needs to go to AlAnon and learn how to detach with love.
"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."
Clara
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 16:59
Permalink
Which was quietly suggested..
Which was quietly suggested... She seriously faults him for being able to rebuild his life. Meanwhile, what has happened to hers?
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 16:57
Permalink
Gigi, you are one of those
Gigi, you are one of those that just looks for reasons to be pissed off then. I can hear it now. "That Clara pissed me off! I am NEVER going to another meeting she goes to..." How is a word that I am using to describe the residual pain and anger in an alcoholic home possible offensive? What is he supposed to do? Let his life slide by and not move forward because of his daughter? How does that benefit anyone? He has tried to make amends to her. If attempting to make raparations to a harmed person didn't work, what is he supposed to do?
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Persephone In Exile
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 17:03
Permalink
Oh, knock it off already,
Oh, knock it off already, Marietta. This forum can handle dissent, but this isn't it. This is just trolling.
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
gigi
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 17:14
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No, I'm not looking for
No, I'm not looking for reasons to be pissed off. I just keep finding them. I'll tell you why that word pissed me off Clara: I'm a leftover from an alcoholic home. So I know what that's like. I also saw my parent put her life back together after getting sober, listened to her talk about all that she learned in AA, heard her talk on the phone to her sponsees, and read the 12 step literature she gave me. What I did not see was her trying to come back into my life to help clean up the mess she made of that. Her amends was never an amends-it was a "look what a good person I am now! Look what I learned in AA!"
It also pisses me off because I work my ass off every day to make sure that my children are not leftovers. I believe that making amends is taking action, not apologizing and then patting myself on the back for being a good girl.
Getting sober does not make you a good person. Being a good person makes you a good person. AA fails to make this distinction.
"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."
Ironic
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 18:09
Permalink
Gigi
I agree 100% with what you said. You don't have to fucking work 8 steps with a sponsor (I know it doesn't mention sponsorship in the book but I have honestly never heard of anyone working the steps without one) in order to sincerely apologize to people you have hurt.
As far as getting sober not equaling an apology, I've definitely noticed that some selfish (ex)addicts don't make such great direct amends.
AND GETTING SOBER DOES NOT MAKE SOMEONE A GOOD PERSON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Door knob, how I wish I had somewhere to wear a t-shirt with that ironed on the front :)
Maybe all the shitty things your mom did had just one upside..it sounds like you are a great mom, very insightful and thoughtful and caring about your kids.
I'm young, but I already know that when I have kids I want to protect them. What that means is, I won't even consider it until dope is in my distant, distant, distant past. My hypothetical children will NEVER know an addict mother.
You've been a bit quiet on this forum, and I really hope to see more of your thoughts & opinions on here.
btnben
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 18:20
Permalink
You reminded me of this Ironic
On Children
Kahlil Gibran
Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.
You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them,
but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.
You are the bows from which your children
as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite,
and He bends you with His might
that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
For even as He loves the arrow that flies,
so He loves also the bow that is stable.
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
Ironic
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 18:23
Permalink
Ben
That is a very nice poem, and its on point, too.
We can't make sure that our kids aren't addicts..we just need to make sure they don't see US behaving that way.
gigi
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 19:18
Permalink
Ironic
I appreciate the kind words, undeserved though they may be. I stole about 1 1/2 years from my kids when I was drunk all the time. Luckily, I woke up, got sober and started taking responsibility for my actions. It breaks my heart to know that I was a terrible mother to them while they were very young. That's why I work my ass off to actively make amends to them every day in every way I can. Saying sorry means nothing. Keeping them safe means everything. I just hope that at the end of the day, the good outweighs the bad.
"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."
Clara
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 18:55
Permalink
Interesting, GiGi. I
Interesting, GiGi. I absolutely believe that amends are taking action, and I said so in an earlier post to whomever when I said that often amends are works in progress. I hope the day comes when you and your mother can sit down and have more discussion about how she might be able to help you with your pain towards her. I believe AA does make a distinction that we have to become changed persons from what we were. A phrase that immediately comes to mind is "full citizens of the world" but the many references that are made regarding people who have regained "reputation" in their communities and standing in their families supports the belief of changing into good people. I'm sorry. When I hear stories such as yours, I am reminded as to what kind of mother I more than likely would have been if I had had kids during my drinking heydays. I didn't marry until later in life and children were not an option then. In retrospect, I think it was a blessing. The men I dated during that time would not have made good fathers, and we jointly would have hurt people. Facebook is a pretty good tool in certain respects because I can see what happened in their lives, and not much has changed for them, really. Did you go to AA yourself? And if so, what took you there?
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
JR Harris
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 19:14
Permalink
How come your new avatar looks like Clancy I?
Or am I just imagining things? Of course you have learned the troll tactic of changing your avatar often.
Both this picture and your current avatar look awful close......
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
gigi
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 19:09
Permalink
Clancy Jam
It must have been taken at the Jamboree she referenced earlier.
"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."
Clara
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 19:11
Permalink
How can you change something
How can you change something that hadn't been done in the first place, JR? It looks like Clancy because it is Clancy. I posted it in an attempt to identify myself since there are some that want to insist that I am someone else. I had already disclosed on the board that he had been in El Paso this past weekend at Jamboree. I had been his host. The crew can believe what they choose to believe, but I sure wouldn't take any stock tips from them.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
JR Harris
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 19:16
Permalink
It looks like you and Clancy I even made Time magazine?
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
JR Harris
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 19:27
Permalink
That picture wasn't taken in the last few weeks.......
I'm calling BS.........................
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Clara
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 19:37
Permalink
Yes, it was. If you could
Yes, it was. If you could blow it up, you can read the 50 year El Paso banner over our heads. You can even look up some of the events on the website. I would love for someone to confuse me with Angie Dickenson, but that isn't true as I am not nearly old enough. I believe the other lady is her daughter, but I am not sure.
I just got bored with the speculation. I mean, grown men showing all these strange signs of untreated alcoholism. Talk about contempt prior to investigation. Literally rubbing their hands and assigning roles to another as to which would count typos, "you look for this, and I'll look for that..." I have been on holocaust revisionist sites that have been friendlier, and all because you wanted to believe I am someone you already dislike. I am sure that Orange can tell through an IP address that I am not the same person as Marietta.
I came here because I read something online and I came to look. But while I have been forthcoming with information about myself and personal experiences with AA, I haven't gotten that from you. No one has disclosed the time they had, what took them to AA or what made them leave. It's been silly, really.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
JR Harris
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 19:47
Permalink
Have you taken Sponsorship training from the 13 Step master?
He's known for that from Midtown Washington DC to Plymouth UK you know............
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Clara
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 19:54
Permalink
You are right. The photo you
You are right. The photo you proffered was taken in 2011 at the 2011 Golden Heart Awards dinner. That's Carrie Fisher. The photo of me shows a different woman and different clothing at a different event. I won't take your stock tips, either. But it amazes me how far you will go to to be wrong.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
JR Harris
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 19:59
Permalink
So are you a Sponsorship Graduate of Clancy I?
Stick to the subject. Many of the Sponcees he trained are known sociopaths you know......
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Clara
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 20:02
Permalink
I am not going to reply to
I am not going to reply to you anymore other than to say that I had never met Clancy before nor had I ever heard his story. I heard the occasional word of wisdom attributed to him, but that is it. But I can say that with as much churlishness as he displayed, Clancy can still admit when he's wrong. Good program.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
JR Harris
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 20:05
Permalink
Award winning performance!
Do they give Grammy's for that?
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
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