I am paraphrasing all of quotes to stay away from speaking AA.
The most dangerous chapter in the Big Book is Chapter 7 (not a very lucky number) is entitled "WORKING WITH OTHERS" pages 89 to 103. This is the chapter that is studied heavily by a stepper so they can become a Sponsor. They will underline phrases in it to understand how they can make someone a permanent member of AA. If you have a sponsor you may want to find out what passages they have underlined to access how they got into your life and the tactics they used.
Pg. 89
* Start helping other Alcoholics so that it can help in your recovery.
* Secure their confidence.
* Alcoholics are are very ill.
* Have frequent contact with newcomers.
* If you can not find any Alcoholics to save go to doctors, ministers, priests or hospitals. They will be more than happy to assist you.
* You are only trying to be helpful (notice the contradiction from the first key point)
Pg. 90
* Discover a Prospect.
* Find out all about them (research)
* If there is any indication that they want to join AA talk to the spouse. (research through the family)
* Find out his background, behavior, problems and religious affiliation.(Research prospect)
* Use this information to formulate a plan to get them to join. (Decide how to get them to join AA)
* Wait until they go on a binge to contact them. (They are vulnerable at this stage)
* Make them believe you are the only one that can help them.
* Make hints to the family on how to handle him, leave a BB where they can find it. (leave bait for the new prospect)
Pg. 91
* Urge the family to not be over anxious that might spoil yor plans. (getting the family envolved again)
* Usually the best person to get involved is a doctor or institution (try to get them into rehab)
* If he gets to rehab, try and see him when he is thier still jittery (he's vulnerable, you put him there and make sure you are he realizes you are his only way out.)
* See your prospect alone if possible. (No one to interfere and no witnesses)
* Get him to tell you some of his drinking stories (more research)
Pg. 92
* Tell him you are an alcoholic and understand him. (gain their confidence)
* If you decide they are an Alcoholic continue (you have found a good prospect)
* Tell them that they have a fatal disease and doctors won't tell them that (they have you alone and no witnesses)
* Hopefully their Doctor will tell them they are an alcoholic (if the Doctor that you actually sent him to agrees the better)
Pg. 93
* Tell him about yourself (alone and gain his confidence)
* Stress Spirituality (get him to join AA)
* Tell him its Spiritual and not Religious (bait and switch, confuse him with terms)
* Tell him about a Higher Power (stress its not religious)
* Tell him they can use their own Religion if they have one (obvious contradiction from above)
Pg. 94
* Outline a plan of action on trying to make them to join AA (Planning next steps)
* Tell him your doing this to help your recovery (play on his empathy)
* Tell him it will make everyone around him happy. (play on his empathy)
* Let them rebel if they want to (don't push, you have him on the hook good)
* Try to lend him a copy of your book . (leave bait for the new prospect)
Pg. 95
* Let the prospect think about it for a while (give him some line so you can set the hook real good)
* Let him go on a few more binges, he'll come back after he hurts for a while. (wait to set the hook)
* Hopefully he will find God (religion)
* Tell him that if he does not join he will face the consequences (death)
Pg. 96
* If your prospect doesn't take the hook, its OK just go find another prospect, (take your time, they'll come crawling back)
* If they come back make sure they read the book (give out more bait)
* Don't give any money any kind of aid unless you can afford it (AA doesn't pay it's new salesmen anything)
Pg. 97
* If the prospect doesn't bite on his own try and get him to hit bottom and get him committed to a rehab.( go the doctor route)
* Be nice to the family and let them know you are there to help.(get to them through the family)
Pg. 98
Sorry I can't finish outlining this piece. These last 5 pages outline how to get them to believe in GOD and play with them and their families more.This is the most vile document I have ever read.
Clara
Wed, 05/02/2012 - 16:07
Permalink
I don't doubt that there can
I don't doubt that there can be cliques in any situation. When I worked, there were people that became friendly and spent time together after hours. Same thing in my AA group. Many of us became friends outside of the meetings, and there was a large group. There will be people in meetings you don't like and not all will like you.
I wish it had been better for you. I honestly believe that not everyone that goes is in it for recovery. My husband's previous wife was mandated and she hung around after her time was up because it helped her get clients for her massage therapy business. Never did work a program.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
david
Wed, 05/02/2012 - 15:53
Permalink
The percentage who do manage to stop drinking for good...
Quote: Step 2 Alcoholism/ alcohol abuse has a recognised spontaneous remission rate of 5% per annum. The cumulative effect of this remission rate means that, over time, 50% of people with a drinking problem will stop, and 50% won't. End Quote
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I believe that the real figure for success is generally quoted as 1/3 though I also understand that's been padded favourably by the rehab industry and that probably only 1/10 manage to stop drinking and have normal drink-free or controlled-drinking lives. Rehab is a massive industry supporting not just psychiatric staff but therapists (usually addicts/alcoholics) and specialist doctors in the physical medical field...e.g. liver, general medicine,..
Clara
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 09:25
Permalink
I felt that way about the
I felt that way about the bible. "Ask and you shall receive" and all of that. Some people find fault with anyone that believes in anything, a la Madalyn Murray O'Hair. To each's own, and I am glad that it can be that way.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Trisha K.
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 13:22
Permalink
AA said it was the only way to get sober?
Now my head is really spinning.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine
gigi
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 13:35
Permalink
Jails, institutions or death.
Jails, institutions or death. Sounds like one way of saying that AA is THE WAY.
"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."
btnben
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 13:36
Permalink
Is this.....
Is this a multiple choice test? Are there any other alternatives? Those presented seem a little negative...lol
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
gigi
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 13:41
Permalink
I'll take
institutions for $500, Alex.
"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."
Clara
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 14:00
Permalink
Not to me. It sounds as if
Not to me. It sounds as if that is the route that alcohol can take an alcoholic.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
causeandeffect
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 14:05
Permalink
You never answered my question.
Where does AA say that it’s not the only way?
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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
Clara
Fri, 02/24/2012 - 08:40
Permalink
Tell me where it does, Anti?
Tell me where it does, Anti?
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
gigi
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 14:09
Permalink
Sure it can and it does.
But. AA preaches that IT WILL happen to those unfortunates. Not that it is a mere possibility. Scare tactics and fear mongering are quite effective tools used by most religions; and AA is no exception.
"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."
Clara
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 16:43
Permalink
I can see it happening to me,
I can see it happening to me, if I went back to drinking. I was already involved in legal troubles. I don't imagine that it would have gotten any better. I certainly never drank smarter even after that first DUI.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
flannigan
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 10:37
Permalink
to Clara
If wishes were horses, beggars would ride. And O'Hair was an atheist from Baltimore who merely did not believe in "God" or other deities. Why do you think she cared what you or me or anyone believed in? She wanted prayer removed from public schools which I find quite appropriate. And so did the Supreme Court of the United States.
Clara
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 12:37
Permalink
Madalayn Murray O'Hair was
Madalayn Murray O'Hair was such a mixed bag, it is hard to know what she wanted, other than to be a rude, profane, obnoxious hater of anything and everything. She admitted to such and delighted in it. Having said that, I don't think any person deserved the end she got, but I imagine that even she was praying to something by the end of her horrific life. She was much more than just a non-believer from Baltimore. What she thought and wanted were the only things that mattered and it ended up costing her her life.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Amour013
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 13:55
Permalink
Mixed Bag....
Ahhhh.... the ol' "There are no atheists in foxholes" bullshit routine.
causeandeffect
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 13:57
Permalink
Yup
I've even heard that from a so-called "atheist" stepper. I'm so not convinced he's an atheist at all.
Troll free AA critical forum
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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
flannigan
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 10:49
Permalink
AA as "treatment" for alcoholism
What worked for you (in terms of your overconsumption of alcohol) is the fact that you stopped drinking.
No magic, no divine intervention, no miracle. You did it yourself. Giving credit to a superstitious cult religion is not evidence or proof of anything except that is what you choose to believe. Beliefs are just beliefs. Congrats on your sobriety. Wishing you a happy life.
Clara
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 12:43
Permalink
Thank you, Flannigan, and I
Thank you, Flannigan, and I have a happy, joyous life for a number of reasons, and I count my fellowship in AA as one. I agree with you that I did the work to become sober, but I also have to give credit to my fellowship as well for helping me to maintain it. I think AA is a great framework. When I thought about it, the Steps are merely the same things in most religions that people use to have a happy life. I just bought a book on the Christian aspects of the Steps, published by Hazelden, and my husband has a Buddist version.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Persephone In Exile
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 14:35
Permalink
The one thing I never could
The one thing I never could fathom, because I was (stress on the WAS) a Christian when I attended xA, was how one could be (as a Christian) part of a group that others could count as their deity. Ok, HP, whatever, same idea. It is so blatantly heretical to just about any Christian theology I have ever studied. I actually even took that point to a few Catholic Priests (actually, one was a Monsignor) and they both agreed with ME. And told me not to go on those grounds.
It just doesn't work. And the same problem exists for Muslims. I know no Jews who are religious enough to care about that bit, frankly, but that's simply because I know no religious Jews. How the hell do they get around that one bit?
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
causeandeffect
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 14:41
Permalink
A group of drunks
As something I'm supposed to pray to? I don't think so. How patently absurd.
Troll free AA critical forum
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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
Clara
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 17:15
Permalink
Could you take strength from
Could you take strength from shared experiences? Isn't that what you do here?
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Trisha K.
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 13:33
Permalink
Atheistism.
What if you are a god-fearing Christian? Do you still tell them your views as if it were theirs but they are just in denial.
Acceptance is the key.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine
causeandeffect
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 13:41
Permalink
What about if someone's an
What about if someone's an atheist? How are the 12 steps supposed to apply to them?
Troll free AA critical forum
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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
Clara
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 14:04
Permalink
Cause, have you and the
Cause, have you and the others on this blog actually been to AA meetings and looked at the material? There is a chapter to non-believer to those that profess to be atheist or agnostic.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
causeandeffect
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 14:12
Permalink
Of course we have.
We wouldn't be here otherwise. The chapter "We Agnostics" is some of the most condescending bunch of tripe I had ever read. At least until I read the 12&12, which is far, far worse.
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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
gigi
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 14:12
Permalink
HA! The Chapter to the Agnostic? Really?
Have you read that horrible piece of condescending trash, Clara?
"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."
causeandeffect
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 14:26
Permalink
gigi, my personal favorite is
Let's look first at the case of the one who says he won't believe -- the belligerent one. He is in a state of mind which can be described only as savage.
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Clara
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 14:32
Permalink
Sure, I read it. It's been a
Sure, I read it. It's been a long time, but it didn't apply to me so it didn't especially speak to me.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
avogadno
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 16:37
Permalink
RE: Sure I read it.
You took Comparative Religions in College, and this didn't "speak" to you? Or did you just not care that others, an atheistic for example, wouldn't find it insulting?
Can you read it again please and with sincere objectivity and let us know what you think?
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
causeandeffect
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 14:37
Permalink
Here's another atrocity
"If you think you are an atheist, an agnostic, a skeptic, or have any other form of intellectual pride which keeps you from accepting what is in this book, I feel sorry for you."
Bed Pan, it's a wonder anyone can stand it.
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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
avogadno
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 16:33
Permalink
The Agnostic
We ask only that you do "simple little things". It doesn't say exactly what. But it's PRAY and BELIEVE. Shall I dare say that is NOT simple for an agnostic let alone an atheist.
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
Ironic
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 17:25
Permalink
C&E
Do you know that in my brain I picture you like Rosie the Riveter?
causeandeffect
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 17:33
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What?
Lol, who is Rosie the Riveter?
Troll free AA critical forum
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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
btnben
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 17:35
Permalink
I had to look it up...lol
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
Persephone In Exile
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 17:36
Permalink
Not to sound utterly stupid
Not to sound utterly stupid here, but how do you put an image in a comment?
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
gigi
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 13:49
Permalink
I don't understand your
I don't understand your question, Trisha K.
"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."
JR Harris
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 14:06
Permalink
I have never met so many athiests praying to God until AA
I have noticed that many prospect hunters camouflage themselves as atheists so they can sneak up on prospects and put a Spiritual noose around them before they become wise to what is going on. Last summer I had this sweet little old lady try and pull the atheist card on me (I think she recognized me from a coven meeting at some church basement). Out of the blue she came up to me and told me she was an atheist and then went on to say that she volunteered at a church, but it was alright, they still liked her. I couldn't get rid of her, she went on and on about how she was working with "Alcoholics" helping them get their lives together. she kept following me around trying to get me to volunteer and donate clothes and stuff.
Scared the heck out of me, I didn't even want her to see what car I was driving. It was actually the only time I was actually worried about someone I met in a grocery store. She should be banned.
Have you ever seen the 1944 movie "Arsenic and Old Lace" with Cary Grant? She reminded me of that, a real angel of death:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenic_and_Old_Lace_%28film%29
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
JR Harris
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 14:31
Permalink
*
erasing duplicate
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Clara
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 14:31
Permalink
That's pretty funny. But
That's pretty funny. But there are other ways to work with alcoholics than a church... I think she could have just liked being there.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
JR Harris
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 14:40
Permalink
No, she was a prospect hunter and she thougt I was a mark
Nope, she was close to seventy, grey hair (nicely manicured though), nice clothes, etc.... She was one sick puppy and thought I would want to go prospect hunting with her because she saw me in the rooms of AA. She is just the type of sociopath that would find some low bottom drunk and string them along, just giving them enough to stay alive. If they didn't respond to the brainwashing, she would send them spiraling down quickly so they could make a martyr out of them.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
gigi
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 13:48
Permalink
VEEEEERRRY difficult for an atheist
I am an atheist. I worked the hell out of the steps. I suspended disbelief until my head was about to explode. Now, that being said, I actually like the idea behind some of the steps and have found utilizing step 10 ( for example) beneficial in my life. But I had to take out all the god stuff and twist it all around and upside down to make it work.
What I don't like is having god shoved down my throat everytime I walked into a meeting. Why would I seek someone who is not there?
"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."
causeandeffect
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 13:54
Permalink
I agree gigi
that introspection is a good practice, but nobody needs a crazy program to do that. And I've heard some pretty openly negative things said about atheists in meetings. Were you open about being an atheist, or did you have to keep quiet about it?
Troll free AA critical forum
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Clara
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 14:10
Permalink
Step Ten is merely doing onto
Step Ten is merely doing onto others as you would have them do you. Clean things up immediately and don't let ego get in the way. When you are wrong, act responsibly. Personally, it is a universal law.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
btnben
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 15:10
Permalink
Step 10
Isn't that the one that says when you screw up, clean up? It is in fact my favorite. It actually works for you. Most people respect someone who admits they have made a mistake and clears it up. In the interests of "rigorous honesty" I must ask myself, do I want to clear things up or am I playing to get the respect of others? An honest reply would be a mixture of both.
The "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" (Don't want anyone to "do me" today Clara...lol) is called The Golden Rule I think. Is it the only thing that is common to all religions?
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
Clara
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 15:20
Permalink
LOL! That's funny. No, I
LOL! That's funny. No, I don't think it is the only thing common to most religions. And I have had to ask myself my motive for making apologies and amends. I think this is a good practice for anyone, actually.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
btnben
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 15:24
Permalink
Read again
I think it is the only thing common to ALL.
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
avogadno
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 16:46
Permalink
Holy water, that irks me!!
About needing a program to practice introspection, as C&E said. Steppers pulli try and pull rank as AA is the only place (and the first organization) to learn how to be mindful of others and be apologetic. How about that some people learn that as far back as there toddler years and that not all alcoholics are in need of being told this is necessary.
"I have a HP in my life and I do the steps. This way I can learn to love and accept." Zippity doo dah, I say. Zillions do that their entire life.
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
Clara
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 17:17
Permalink
How can you say that? I
How can you say that? I think most people are exposed to that all of their lives. If they live that way, however...
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Ironic
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 17:21
Permalink
Avo
I share this sentiment.
causeandeffect
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 17:29
Permalink
AA just get the credit for
AA just get the credit for any common human decency anybody shows. All good flows from the program, all bad flows from the members. I remember this woman who often shared that she learned to "love everyone" in AA. Of course that would be right after biting the head off this poor mentally handicapped girl as she struggled to read the passage from the big book and telling her "that's enough!" It appears nobody saw the contradiction but me.
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