I took out an Ad for Smart Recovery- I challenge you ...

One way to beat them at their own game is to promote other choices (not alternatives) to AA/NA. SO I have taken out my very first ad.

I know AA must be exposed and blah blah blah, but We, I can promote Smart, Rational, WFS, SOS and such to enlighten the world that AA is not the only way.

This is the kind of thing that AA did in its early years especially in the 1950's. Marty Mann went around and spoke to the biggest 500 companies in America and she did this promoting AA for the first 5 years of the National Council on Alcoholism. She used this Non profit to promote AA under the guise of "caring".

I plan on not only exposing AA in my Documentary but really highlighting the power of empowering choices that are sane, non religious and CURRENT!!!

If all of us here can write and send letters to professionals. If anyone can take out the smallest ad promoting your favorite choice ...If you can write your own personal horror story and send it to your local newspaper, if you can tell every professional you know about the truth about 12 step we can make change.

I am not stupid. Hollywood seems to be in love with AA. Too many stars have attended and promote it with their shows like Nurse Jackie.

If anyone needs a good letter to send, I had a blogger help me write a really great letter to a Professionals exposing all of this. makeaasafer@gmail.com

I had a meeting yesterday with some people from our local Drug and Alcohol Agency. Lo and behold, when I got there, 2 out of 5 of the people were active members of the serene fraternity. Luckily, the other 3 were far above them on the pecking order (2 psychiatrists and the Agency Director). The meeting was, in part, to discuss the possibilities of opening SMART meetings in the city.

The 2 "Chosen People" both recognised me immediately, although neither let on that they knew me. Fine by me...lol. I then spent 40 minutes ridiculing AA with facts that I had learned directly from the OP. Talk about in my element - I could hardly stop grinning...lol. The most fun was in highlighting the deficiencies of sponsorship. The people that mattered couldn't believe that there was no monitoring of how good, or bad, a sponsor was. AA's own figure of 17% of sponsors advising sponcees off of their meds sort of clinched it. Likening it to the same odds as Russian Roulette really brings it home.

Nothing definite decided on yet, but every journey begins with the first step...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Did you bother to bring an IPad with you so you could show your esteemed guests the character you display on this site.
You crack me up...lol. Ben sorry this smells of bull doody. No way I am buying that a psychiatrist sat beside you and listened to you talk without asking you what is really your problem.
Next time you meet with this psychiatrists have him read what you print here, Ben. As a matter of fact have them all read this site.

2 psychiatrists. And do you really think anyone takes any notice of what goes on in internet blogs? I did give them Orange's site address (specifically for the Lizard Brain Addiction Monster article) and they know the name I use. I have no fear of anyone reading anything I've written or done. Can you say the same, Danny?...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

I have never heard of someone advising their sponsees to go of their meds. I mean, that is is a direct contradiction with the "we are not doctors, lawyers or marriage counselors" line.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

"A while back, I ran across a survey on A.A. members' attitudes towards medications, and it claimed that A.A. members were not at all dogmatic about medications — only 17% of the sponsors were against them. The author of that article was pro-A.A. and trying to put a smiley-face on the issue. What the writer of the article did not seem to be able to realize is: that meant that any person with both a psychiatric and a drug or alcohol problem had a 17% chance of getting a bad sponsor who just might kill him or her with stupid orders...

(See: Alcoholics Anonymous and the Use of Medications to Prevent Relapse: An Anonymous Survey of Member Attitudes. ROBERT G. RYCHTARIK; GERARD J. CONNORS; KURT H. DERMEN; PAUL R. STASIEWICZ. Journal of Studies on Alcohol, Jan 2000 v61 i1 p134.)

Guess what 17% is equal to? That is almost exactly a one-in-six chance — the odds in Russian Roulette. Would you actually play real Russian Roulette with a Colt 45 six-shooter that had one bullet in it? Would you advise a friend to?"

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

causeandeffect's picture

It happened to me twice. I tried it the first time and had extreme suicidal ideation after cutting my meds in half. The second time, I fired the sponsor. You just can't monkey with someone's brain chemistry like that. It's an extremely dangerous game they play. There is a study out that says 60% of AA members had someone make that "suggestion."

"The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
~Dresden James

Pennywise's picture

Absolutely. And correct me if I am wrong, but as I understand it, Clancy himself has spoken against meds.

Have you listened to your Arnold ZeDVille today?
http://www.reverbnation.com/arnoldzedville/songs

What happens to people's mentalities, that they can assume they know better than doctors? It's simply crazy, and I'm not using that word lightly. After which step, or how many years sober, do you suddenly have this ability?

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

causeandeffect's picture

That's what I hear.

"The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
~Dresden James

Pennywise's picture

C&E: Were you responding to me about Clancy and meds? It is hard to tell with the format of the board. Are you saying that you have also heard that Clancy opposes meds?

Have you listened to your Arnold ZeDVille today?
http://www.reverbnation.com/arnoldzedville/songs

causeandeffect's picture

Yes Pennywise, that's what I've heard about Clancy, but I'm on the opposite side of the nation, and it's happened to me. Twice. I quit letting people know I was on meds. I had depression all my life and had been on many antidepressants to no avail until I went to detox. They prescribed me something new and the change has been profound. I've never been happy like this and it's nearly impossible to describe. And as time goes on it just gets better and better. The only way I'll ever give up my meds is when they wrestle them out of my cold dead hands.

"The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
~Dresden James

Pennywise's picture

Clancy's empire reaches far beyond the west coast. Indeed, he's got an Atlantic Group. There are many people all across the globe who are being sponsored by Clancy and don't even know it.

Have you listened to your Arnold ZeDVille today?
http://www.reverbnation.com/arnoldzedville/songs

Clara's picture

I wish I had known about this as I could have asked him about last week at Jamboree. He was the guest speaker.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

The Road to Recovery group here is the main culprit. They're a direct copy of Clancy's PG.

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

causeandeffect's picture

AA has admitted in a pamphlet and in the very, very back of the "Living Sober" book in an appendix nobody will every read that this stance has resulted in suicide. Even AAcultwatch has a correspondence between an agency for patients who suffer mental "illness" and the local AA, saying that they knew AA in general did it, but one specific group was refusing help to people on meds. Have you seen that? The specific group was notified and they refused to change their ways. Nobody seemed to address that it was happening in AA in general.

"The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
~Dresden James

Clara's picture

But you are not saying that this paragraph is telling you that it isn't an AA stance that no one take prescribed meds. I cannot see it being a group conscience to not help people taking prescribed meds. I do know people that will not work with drug addicts, feeling that they are not in a position to since they are acoholics. AA in general does NOT advocate a no meds position, but it does support taking whatever is prescribed AS prescribed and to work with medical professionals honestly so that they know an alcoholics suspeptibility to certain drugs.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

I hear what your saying Clara, but reality is often very different from what AA preaches. Have you ever tried to complain about anything that goes on in AA?. The whole organisation is set up so no-one is accountable. In an ideal world this could possibly work (probably not though, human nature being what it is). The problem arises when 2/3 of the members are coersed by courts/treatment centre/professional bodies etc.

Anybody tries to complain to AAWS in New York usually gets a standard brush-off along the lines of "All groups are autonomous.....". When no-one is responsible and no-one is monitoring what goes on, there can be no consistency between one group and the next. Personalities take over.

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

No, you have no business teling someone to go off their meds, I don't care what the meds are or what they are for. But I will tell you what I have heard and rather believe. Alcoholic behavior mimics so many things so that until you get the booze out of the system and are dealing with the organic body, who knows what you have? I have friends that were diagnosed bipolar and given meds... but they never told their doctors the extent of their drinking. Some weren't even asked. But when they gave up the hooch and the behaviors leveled out... they did give up their meds. So I wonder if the dianosis is sewed inthe first place at times...

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Clara's picture

Skewed, I mean.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Nice Ben, nice.

Are you going to pat my head and give me a biscuit?...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

massive's picture

Love it! Good work btnben :)

Massive

For reminding me (maybe others too) that although blogging is good for learning, venting, etc., working on change is important too. I'm not trying to down those that aren't active in this because everyone is in there own place. I also think that forums and comments play a big role in this.

Pro Empowerment!

Ironic's picture

I had a long talk with my psychiatrist and my therapist.

My psychiatrist is pretty much anti-support group..which is better than being pro-AA, if you ask me. I can see why a non-addict medical professional would have this view, seeing as AA/NA buddies relapse together all the time.

My therapist wasn't aware of other support groups (she is not an addiction specialist and purposely takes very few addicts on as patients because it can be so disappointing), but you better believe she is now!! I see her every 3 weeks, and last time I saw her she told me she had recommended Googling SMART and WFS to two different clients! Apparently, she has a client with 18 months sober who felt "guilty" for not attending some kind of meeting.

It is sick how 12 Step bullshit permeates our minds as a society!!

My doctor was the same. She thought AA was the only thing out there. AA has such a stranglehold on spreading information that it's not surprising they don't know any better. Additionally, we on here have a pretty focused outlook on the subject. For General Practitioners, addiction/abuse is just a part of what they do. Their purpose is more to find a solution rather than question it's validity, and AA wins by default most of the time.

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

How could you say such a thing? Does your dr. not have the same access to internet as you or me? AA doesn't have any stranglehold on anything. You give them too much credit.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

It's simply a case of they've never heard of any alternatives. Additionally, the AA "attraction not promotion" promotional machine has been working overtime for over 70 years. Doctors are busy people. Until someone tells them differently, they're not going to spend time researching. There's a lot of wrong information out there that, hopefully, this site is going some way to rectify.

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

They don't? What the heck was going on in rehab, then?

massive's picture

Clara, Many Dr's are clueless.

Massive

Clara's picture

In all honesty, I have been told by doctors that they spend very little time in school studying acoholism or other forms of addictions. Granted, these are older doctors so perhaps that had changed over the past 15 years. But my own sponsor went to a shrink for ten years. He was going to be out of town while my sponsor's wife was also gone, and Gil was having a time of it. So the dr. suggested AA and Gil went. He stayed, although he did also see his shrink until the man died. I really don't know how anyone could necessarily discourage a support group. How different was it than Gil's group therapy he went to each week that his dr. hosted? I just don't get the stranglehold anyone could feel that AA could have. Other support groups started within years of AA, and a simple search reveals them easily. It would seem to me that no effort was put into it...

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

I am asking this, because I believe that there are two distinct groups in AA. People that go there to stop drinking and find like friends, which is fine. There is also a very defined group that organizes the group hunting trips in "Corrections Committees" primarily headed up by a few old timers and a large amount of new recruits (newcomers). These I believe are the dangerous members that manipulate other people in an attempt to grow the home group. They will also be the ones that say there are very few court mandated members and that these meetings are the safest places to be. They forget that they are organizing prospecting hunts to go into jails and prisons to bring hardened criminals back to residential church basements.

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

Clara's picture

Oh, yes. We had people that took meetings into the the jails and also those that participated with getting information to the profressionals. That wasn't my gig. I actually got into trouble with an oldtimer that took issue with my sponsor. He's a very big DUI attorney in Annapolis and he has literature for all the A's in his office. It would seem logicall given that 90% of his cases has something to do with DUIs of some kind or other criminal activity related to the buying, seling, otherwise attempting to get whatever you needed for your habit... But he would feel remiss if he didn't let people know that there is something out there that could help, if you want it. And he's had 40 years in the fellowship so it gives him that bit in trying to help someone to NOT come back into his office again... Anyway, the guy felt he was wrong to try to suggest that someone go to a few open meetings to decide if the program might be for them. I can't remember what th district called the role of those - professional cooperation or something?

But you will always have someone in the meetings whose drinking career landed them into some legal trouble. It was certainly true of me.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

Did you have any real estate agents or bankruptcy and divorce lawyers that helped with depleting the assets of newcomers to make them hit bottom following the Jellenik curve? Normally they try not to take offices in incorporated groups where they would have to put their names on a tax form 990. They do this for a reason, it is called plausible deniability.

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

Clara's picture

But look at what you say. Doctors are busy people, therefore they do not know. That puts the onus on them, not that AA keeps anyone from knowing about alternatives. I doubt AA would even care given that its own literature says it is but one way to get sober. Again, you just give it too much credit.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

If you are sold on the idea that AA works, then you won't look for anything else. I don't understand why the onus would be on doctors if they have been sold the AA way. Try mentioning SMART in a meeting and listen for the sharp intake of Big Bill Breath...lol.

If AA was just what it says in the preamble, it would be harmless, a lot more beneficial than it is now and would probably have many millions more members than it has today. AA's problem is that, on the outside, it is a self help group for people who want to stay sober, but once you look into it, it's a cult religion that has nothing to do with drinking. Bad Medicine...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

Why would they be sold on it? On one hand, you say that doctors are busy peope that just have heard about AA and perhaps not alternatives. That could be true simply because of the longevity of AA, but not because AA has any special power that keeps information from "competitors". I know people that have gotten sober in any number of methods.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Isnt Clara Marietta Davis folks?

"I welcome all allies in the fight against A.A. hegemony" -Orange

www.expaa.org EXPOSE AA

NA DAYTONA- Violent Criminals Being Mandated to AA and NA Meetings
http://nadaytona.org/alcoholics-anonymous-votes-no-to-protect-members-from...

No threats yet...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

No. I am not anyone other than I have presented myself to be. My name is Clara, and I have met with some success in AA. I also didn't check into anything else to get sober. There is no reason to try to start controversary where there is none, friend.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

I think so, that Clara is Marietta Davis. Seems pretty obvious.

"I welcome all allies in the fight against A.A. hegemony" -Orange

www.expaa.org EXPOSE AA

NA DAYTONA- Violent Criminals Being Mandated to AA and NA Meetings
http://nadaytona.org/alcoholics-anonymous-votes-no-to-protect-members-from...

Marietta is a bit OCD about typos. Clara has quite a few. May be M being clever and I am easily fooled. Put me in a barrel and tell me to piss in the corner, I'll be there til I burst...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

LOL. Yes, I have typos all over the board, and that is a combination of a computer with keys that stick at times and the fact that I can't really spell!

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

But look at them. They're quite deliberate ones, and ones a spell check would catch. Let's just say that if Hannibal Lecter were here, he'd say something along the lines of them looking desperately random. "Like the elaboration of a bad liar." Or something like that.

Clara's picture

You are too funny. I am blogging on a sunny Texas afternoon, not applying for a job. I don't bother with spellcheck. Again, looking for something that doesn't exist.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Oh yes, I think that's a given about Clara. If for no other reason, Clara sure jumped right onto the "well, everyone can look up other recovery programs" line as if it's everyone's fault if they didn't do the research. You know, even if they're docs who otherwise never have to think about this stuff.

causeandeffect's picture

Naw, I doubt it. Clara's just spewing the same old AA apologist crap. The same old "it's your fault if you find something wrong with AA". I think marietta is far too proud to take a page from the profoundly ignorant danny's handbook of deception. But I could be wrong. Time will tell...

I would, however like to know where in the big book or AA in general does AA say it's not the only way to sobriety.

"The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
~Dresden James

Clara's picture

I don't think that I am spewing anything that should be objectionable, Cause, nor do I think what is available in black and white to anyone should be a problem. There are plenty of people that didn't find a fit in AA and went on to try other things. I personally am finding that problem in EP, although I liked AA in MB very much. But I wouldn't say that it is a program issue, exactly. I just don't like the meetings here very much.

As for professional recommendations, the poster did say that his dr. didn't take on addicts often, so it may very well be right that the dr. didn't know of other areas of help. I would say that AA is probably the most recognizable, but that is due (IMO) to its age, not any effort on its part to stifle anyone else. Alcoholics Victorious started in 1948 by some pastor in Chicago, I think, and I wonder if that wasn't to keep people in his flock from leaving churches and JC for a "god of your understanding." The premise of that organization is JC and religion for sobriety, and they do give biblical references for the steps.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Clara's picture

Sorry, got away from me. But I do believe that it is incumbant on the part of a person to do some research on what may pertain to his/her personal situation instead if just taking the easier way out, which is to let someone else do all the thinking or you. For example, my dog is terminally ill. I spent a lot of time learning about his condition and possible treatments. I just think that is responsible. For others, there are no alternatives for sic pet. You just put them down.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

If someone decides to trust someone else, say, or is unable to do this research, would it then be entirely their fault?

Clara's picture

You said two very important words. If you DECIDE to trust someone else... To me, it is kind of that same old "ignorance of the law is no excuse..." The fact is we can know about other opportunities in anything if it is worth it to look around. When I wanted to have my neck done, I looked into all the surgeons available and then made appointments. I always tell people to do their own research when making a recommendation, but "I used Dr. White..." I don't think it is an enability... More often than not, I think it is just laziness.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

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