Notes on an NA Meeting

(Apologies for length. Cross-posted at my dinky little blog;) Well, mission accomplished. I went back to a meeting at my former "home group", and while I knew it would look very, very different from my perspective of not being even in a semi-chronic state of relapse (rather, from the perspective of being completely clean for an extended period), it was more of a mess than I had thought it would be. First off, I knew this was a very "sick" group to begin with, it was widely talked about in other NA groups at the time. I was actually "recruited out" of this group by other NAers for that reason. My former sponsor was a disaster, a woman who had 12 sponsees after she and her then-boyfriend rather took over the group a few years ago. At that time she had only 1 1/2 years of "clean-time", which is actually less than I have now, yet was the only eligible female sponsor for this group, which is one of the largest where I live and boasts the largest amount of court ordered members. I say this not to judge her smaller amount of clean-time, btw, but to point out that I feel in no way qualified to try and guide a vulnerable addict through to sobriety at this point in my life, as much as I'd love to help people. I had no real inclination to speak to this woman, and that feeling grew during the meeting. She finally shared last, a few people after her former boyfriend (and previous sponsor of every male in that group), who revealed gladly that he was now facing homelessness and was suicidal. Despite his newfound interest in suicide however, he kept saying how many people he had called "in the program" to talk to about his "racing thoughts", his hopelessness, etc. Every one of them has told them to "read the basic text, man". And hit some more meetings (he already goes to 1 per day). All I could thing was, "Holy crap, this is your friend, he's effing suicidal, and you're telling him to read the basic text and hit several meetings a day? WTF??!?!?" But......back to my former sponsor sharing. She stated repeatedly that the only reason she was there was to wish a goodbye to an oldtimer there who was to be moving tomorrow three states away. Then she launched into telling the room how she had had to use every bit of strength she had last night to---keep from "beating the shit out of this bitch and all she was doing was stroking my hair". After explaining about 10 times that she is just a "very, very violent person", she tried to explain that this woman wasn't really doing much, just stroking her hair. But she had a problem--she didn't fully explain this bit--with gauging motives of women and whether or not different women were "that bitch who fucked me up so bad". Therefore, "those newcomer women, those fucking newcomer women" should all just "stay the fuck away from" her. And yes, at this point I was wishing to my doorknob that I had instant replay so I could run it back and record this particularly enlightening drunkologue. Or was it an assaultalogue? What the HELL?!?!? Who speaks like this? Ever? Let alone to a group that is supposed to be gaining "fellowship" from their words? Needless to say, she was not the first person to share about their problems with previous episodes or even arrests for "violent" behaviors or offenses. While everyone else nodded their heads knowingly at each of these confessions, I sincerely wished to become invisible. I didn't feel terribly warm and gushy inside with the three men who told everyone how they only had to serve anywhere from 20-90 days in jail (for "violent" offenses, unspecified). I was wondering about the five or so 18-20 year olds sitting in there eligible for sponsorship by these people who kept claiming that they'd not only use were it not for meetings but that they'd do much worse ("I'm just a VERY violent person!"). And that doesn't even touch on the talk of suicide! Admittedly, it does make sense now, that this woman who hates other women to such a degree would've not cared one bit (or even returned a call, though I considered that a blessing, even then) about my life or her other 11 sponsees at the time. After all, she's just a "very, very violent person". I certainly am not going to harbor any animosity towards a woman who is so messed up that she can barely make it through a night without an assault & battery charge, I don't begrudge these people their different beliefs. Not if these meetings are all they have preventing them from killing themselves. That said, people who've been clean for years and years whose daily struggle is severe depression, violent tendencies, suicidal thoughts --well, let's just say that their biggest problem at the present is probably not their experience however long ago with addiction. Admittedly also, this could be grandstanding. But if the newcomer is the most important person in the room, what kind of hope does it give them in their own "recovery" (and there were EIGHT people there with under 30 days all in the 18-21 age group!) to hear every oldtimer talking about not being able to escape from the destructive thoughts in their heads, the dangerous thoughts of suicide, constant threats of homelessness? If this is "serenity", I must've missed the proper definition. So, my ex-sponsor ended her share by stating that she was grateful for this county's "finest", who had arrested her (for some previous violent behavior, I was inferring), that that was a blessing in disguise. Then made a final reference to "newcomer women". I had already passed during sharing, even declined to give my name (I didn't want to seem horribly disrespectful because I did NOT go to "crash" a meeting, merely to observe--but I still wasn't about to say that I AM an addict. Oh, no.). After hearing that though, I couldn't much speak at all. I encouraged the newer members best I could, told them not to lose hope, that if I could make it anyone could. I kept free of any other message. I won't deny that I felt much better off in having refused previously to "keep coming back", though. Thank the great doorknob in the sky, my life is far better for the path I chose.

Comments

marietta davis's picture

1. Why did you go to this meeting? 2. Why did you stay? Was this a fact-gathering mission so you could crow about being sober longer than 1 1/2 years, and that you are grateful you're not like them? This would have been a perfect opportunity for you to speak your mind and highlight your aim to make meetings safer/more respectful/more encouraging, and to voice your objections to different facets of weak meetings, including talk of suicide and violence. (I don't give a shit about crosstalk; this is an example where it was not only permissible but preferable.) These are the trenches that everyone who hates the 12-steps complains about, and yet no one is willing to enlist in this war, move down to the front where the bullets are flying, and try to turn things around one meeting at a time - not for yourselves, but for the poor sumbitches who are there, barely clean and really struggling. You could have been a beacon and instead you were wallpaper. I don't get it.
Pennywise's picture

Maybe she was worried about being attacked? That sounds like a pretty crazy meeting!
"One turned up the other day calling himself Boniface." ~ Bill Wilson
marietta davis's picture

If she were worried about being attacked she could have left.
live_free_or_die's picture

......in an ambulance?
LFOD's Blog http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/blog/10857 ©2014 AA:MyNotGodHasItCovered® http://www.expaa.org/ http://noforcedaa.weebly.com/ http://12stepprograms.weebly.com/ NOT AA: Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
btnben's picture

When outnumber keep still and hope not to be seen...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

JR Harris's picture

Sometimes when you find yourself in a particularly dangerous coven it is best to play "possum" and slowly exit with others. If she got up in the middle and left, the coven would have smelled a prospect who was leaving their coven and some of the more dangerous "trapper prospect hunters" would have tried to contact her friends and family to try to get her back causing all kinds of trouble. The gossip would have spread like wildfire and anyone who knew anything about her life would have tried to tighten the Spiritual noose around her neck tighter than it already is.

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

marietta davis's picture

Maybe she needs a concealed carry permit to attend her "home group".
JR Harris's picture

Just carry a "Big Book" and say how wonderful an Spiritual you are. Wear some AA trinkets and they will leave you alone.

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

marietta davis's picture

How would they know if she was leaving or going to the ladies room or going to get coffee or going to make a phone call? So far I've read about two disgruntled attendees. Even in a small meeting they don't represent a majority. It pisses me off to read that you think women are so fragile. We're not. If we want to get up and leave, we leave. We don't blame our fear on a guy talking about suicide or a mouthy shrew trying to be the baddest ass in the room. I'm really surprised - and dismayed - at how some women believe they are so tender that they can't exercise their own right to participate or not in these meetings. It's mind-blowing.
Dennis M.'s picture

When I was attending NA heavily as a teen in the mid-eighties, 1.5 years of clean time was enough to be considered a guru. The most claimed time that I recall was 5 years and this was from Dave M., the predator I've previously mentioned. There was another with 3 years who was always the first to "share" and was the most dominant in the meetings, other than that very few ever had more than a year.
Dennis M. "They are not at fault, they seem to have been brainwashed that way."

"These are the trenches that everyone who hates the 12-steps complains about, and yet no one is willing to enlist in this war, move down to the front where the bullets are flying, and try to turn things around one meeting at a time - not for yourselves, but for the poor sumbitches who are there, barely clean and really struggling". Get Real "I don't get it". It's called bat.shit.crazy Persephone- Thanks for a wonderful reminder about everything that is wrong with this "treatment" model and why I will never step foot in an XA meeting again. Ever.
marietta davis's picture

What's she even going to meetings for? So she can report all the bad, bad things that happen and then frany can pat her on the head, give her a Milk Bone, and say "good job!"? If she's going to bother to go, why would it be stupid for her to a) stand up for her right to leave if she wants to, or b) be productive if she's there? Otherwise she's just a prissy little snitch. And who gives a fuck if you never go to another meeting? That's recounted in every single post you make here. Don't you have anything else to share, like your volleyball scores or the latest news from your broker?
jonnijoy's picture

Ha ha Persephone, I have been at mtgs like that a few times myself. In NA you will not find big numbers of people with clean time especially in todays world with an opiate epidemic and crack still in the picture. So a crazy addict with over a year clean will most likely be sponsoring many people. Ive also found that the people who talk tough in meetings were actually the ones who were the least badass. The saying holds true in my experience that its the quiet ones to look out for. Being a recovered drug addict myself, I chose to go to AA instead (had a drinking problem also). I couldnt stand the bragging about how much dope you did or how many times you have been arrested. The more arrests, rehabs, time in prison you have, the better your story and the more respect you get. We all know each mtg has its own flavor and the lower bottom mtgs are going to be like you described. Not all NA mtgs are like that though. I have been to lots of them and have also seen decent mtgs with good people who are doing good in life now. There is way too much huggy-kissy crap at NA, along with way too much reading at the start of every mtg and when the chairperson asks "does anybody have any anouncements?" Forget it evreybody has something to say. I think its an attention thing.
DeConstructor's picture

As would throwing a handful of hydros on the floor and watching them like kids at a pinata breaking. (Make it rain NA style) The world needs to see this type of behavior. The world needs to see this face of an organization that considers itself unquestionable.
Ironic's picture

I hope you plan on never ever going back. I did this too, about ..hmm, about 6 months ago. It really is interesting to see it from a sober perspective. Lol it's like you think "I always THOUGHT this was crazy, but now that I'm sober I can really tell how crazy it is."

Marietta, it wouldn't have been a perfect opportunity for anything you mentioned. BTW, did you see the bit about my ex-sponsor saying at least 10 times that she was a "very violent person"? It was the perfect opportunity for me to be able to tell several very young people who are very new to not using drugs that they are WORTH it, they are valuable people who are more powerful than they think they are, and that they can make it! Which is exactly what I did after the meeting when everyone else was smoking outside. You're thinking of this from the standpoint of a trouble-making troll. It would've served me nothing (nor any anti-xA cause) to stand up and seem as irrational and out of control as everyone else there was making themselves out to be.
"Your pain is no credential here, it's just the shadow, shadow of my wound." --Leonard Cohen

Well, I did change the title here from "Is it just me? Um, no, it is you, after all". Yes, it's very strange to see this from a sober perspective. It would be in any meeting situation, but to see it with the same exact group of people I'd seen it with a few years back, well, that was somehow just very enlightening.
"Your pain is no credential here, it's just the shadow, shadow of my wound." --Leonard Cohen

LOL....yes, I went to AA after this group, actually for a time. Brief time though. AA here is much more sane, but only relatively. It just reminded me of a woman I used to know who married a hardcore AAer out in L.A. who tried to attend meetings around here (AA and NA) when visiting family, etc. He kept being so shocked that meetings here are "soooo depressing!" and his wife would remind him that it's not supposed to be a "social club" like meetings (apparently) are in LA. Here, they ARE just flat out depressing! One of the most affluent AAs is not too far from this NA meeting (oddly enough), and that is almost MORE depressing. No grandstanding re: jail time, violent offenses etc., but the same strain of people who are discussing more the chronic severe depression they're suffering from. Which I'm not saying doesn't deserve empathy on its own, it does. I just always get the feeling that if you're barely able to not kill yourself, and are at that level after being sober for years (some of these people are on 20 years!), then me and others telling them to read about that "other" problem you have (really, HAD) isn't the best help they could be getting! If you want to kill yourself on a daily basis, hell, even if you just feel compelled to TELL groups of people daily that you want to kill yourself--and you're sober--then (is it just me? or..) the substance abuse doesn't seem to be the primary problem.
"Your pain is no credential here, it's just the shadow, shadow of my wound." --Leonard Cohen

I don't think that's what everyone is saying, Marietta. It's more in the realm of common sense. I'm not afraid of these people. I'm also not fragile. I know that I'm not, but whether or not the people in a meeting do isn't my concern. It's not exactly "mind-blowing" that you seem to think I should've gone in there and "pulled a Marietta", but don't mistake that for fear or fragility.
"Your pain is no credential here, it's just the shadow, shadow of my wound." --Leonard Cohen

JR, are NAers less hostile towards AA where you live? Here the animosity on the NA side isn't even concealed.
"Your pain is no credential here, it's just the shadow, shadow of my wound." --Leonard Cohen
jonnijoy's picture

"If you want to kill yourself on a daily basis, hell, even if you just feel compelled to TELL groups of people daily that you want to kill yourself--and you're sober--then (is it just me? or..) the substance abuse doesn't seem to be the primary problem." Persephone I think you answered your own question!! How could substance abuse be somebodys problem anymore if they have not used anything in 20 years? lol Its crazy isnt it? I pretty much have learned from myself and others that the root of our problems were not the substance. The substance was used to supress other issues like depression. Take away the drugs and or booze and you are still stuck with depression. I also believe that repressed anger causes depression. That is why I could not agree with the big book about Bills ridiculous take on anger. I used share that I thought this was wrong and somebody would always cross share back at me how we need to avoid anger at all costs without ever stating why, except that it could possibly lead us back to the drink. Dont forget most people in AA are not that deep. If they read it, it must be true.
marietta davis's picture

I repeat: 1) Why did you go? 2) Why did you stay?
marietta davis's picture

Why did you go to this meeting? What was your expectation? Why did you stay? Personal endurance test? Looking for a colorful anecdote to run back here to report?
btnben's picture

FFS Frau Uebergruppenfuehrerin, quit with the interrogation. It's none of your fucking business to ask once, let alone to keep going on about it. Bat shit crazy...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Every time I hear about the contentious relationship between AA and NA I think of the musical West Side Story. AA must be the Jets and NA is the Sharks. Now all we need is Maria and Tony to come along.
marietta davis's picture

If someone posts this kind of information to introduce dialogue, then why would it be none of my business, ben? And if it was not posted for that reason, then what reason would explain it? Applause seeking? Ego-boosting? Oh, I know: sharing. Sharing like a member of AA. It's in my face. It is my business. This sad little waif cannot protect herself against the alleged dangers of an AA meeting. She can't get up and walk out when she's offended or unnerved. Please, ben, muster your imagined wisdom and see if YOU can help her.
btnben's picture

You post in an aggressive way almost demanding an answer. Then you repeat it and then repeat it again. Why? If someone wants to answer they will. It's not the spoken word. Everything is there for people to read. There is no reason to badger people for a reply (quite common occurrence with you). And then, when questioned about what you are doing, to come back with such a rude reply (again - usual for you - and I know I'm going to get the "I'm a victim of everyone else picking on me" speech - yet again...lol) well, I would tell you to just fuck off. Perhaps we should adopt that as a forum standard. Whenever BSC replies in a condescending and rude manner (as above) just give her multiple replies of "Fuck off"...lol. Lets try............"Fuck off, troll"..........added my own little bit there - did you notice BSC?...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

marietta davis's picture

"Perseph’ne I just met a girl named Perseph’ne Her meetings are a drag But still she has to brag To me Perseph’ne She stayed after class just to get me To see her so concerned She really wouldn’t hurt a flea Perseph’ne Say it loud and it screams "collusion" Say it soft and it’s naught but confusion 
Perseph’ne I’ll never quit asking Perseph’ne The most evasive posts I've ever read . . . Perseph’ne!"
btnben's picture
marietta davis's picture

Looks like Persephone's check cleared.
btnben's picture

And I only do it to you and Danny because YOU ARE TROLLS - sinking in yet? Addition : Sorry - I forgot - Fuck off troll

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

marietta davis's picture

Are you calling Leonard Bernstein and Stephen Sondheim the "devil", ben? How untutored of you.
marietta davis's picture

You're not the troll? Depends on who's observing.
btnben's picture

The first 2 notes in that song are a tritone - as in D to G# for example - see diabolus in musica - I think it might have been banned by the Catholic Church at one time

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

btnben's picture

Even if it is your default setting. You troll, me not. Simple enough for you? Fuck off troll - (Remembered that time...lol)

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

JR Harris's picture

In my opinion the main reason I believe that there is a deep seated resentment between AA and NA is the "time" and age factor. In many areas, the cult of NA has very few people with multiple years of "time" and they are relatively young, AA has many people with a supposed clean "time" in the double digits and can be considered oldtimers. AA groups tend to be older in age then NA groups and the AA crowd tends to think of them as kids. Of course their are exceptions to all rules and I have seen people in their 60's at these meetings (me being one of them), but overall the majority of NA meetings appear to be younger in age. Depending upon the AA group, many won't allow people to talk about drugs other than Alcohol which is deep rooted in the scripture of the 'Big Book." I have actually seen many people stifled when talking about other drugs in "shares", but again this depends upon the AA group and they are breaking the no-cross talk rule. In NA, they welcome both Alcoholics and Addicts, they don't care what your drug of choice (DOC) is. I have noticed a heavy resentment from NA members toward AA members because they have had bad experiences with oldtimers in AA who told them to go to NA when they talked about drugs. This is kind of a one up man-ship between the two competing cults for prospect hunting areas, kind of like my cult is better than yours. As time goes by the oldtimers with 20 and 30 years in AA are slowly being replaced with newer recruits who do illicit drugs also. I believe there will always be a divide between the two cults and AA being a more mature cult will try to always be on top, but many AA meeting are starting to allow the discussion of drugs at their rituals. It all depends on how entrenched the oldtimer AA members are at that location.

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

marietta davis's picture

How can two notes be a tritone, when a tritone is an interval of three whole tones?
marietta davis's picture

"You ignorant, me not." ~ Janie Weismuller

I thinks that finally set him back a pinsh!!!
btnben's picture

Tritone is the 3 full tone interval between the two notes - where's your problem? Addition : Just checked on Wikipedia - they use C to F# as their example.

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

btnben's picture

You don't even know what were talking about - it's music - you know, banjos and things...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

marietta davis's picture

If it was banned by the Catholic Church, how the hell would I know about it? I didn't learn about effective contraception until I was 19. (Didn't you know that Wikipedia is not a respected source for information on any topic?) Signed, "miserere nobis"
marietta davis's picture

Pretty sure Bela Fleck knows what a tritone is.
btnben's picture

I said it was banned at some time. Not that it is banned now. That was some time in the middle ages I think. It was banned from music because it made people have horny thoughts apparently. Bugger Maria (not literally) - should the need arise, I'll put my faith in Viagra I think...lol. Disagree with your take on Wikipedia too. Anything factual, it's pretty good on. It's just when you get fanatics promoting causes that it gets a bit out there...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Pennywise's picture

Do you think any part of it has to do with the fact that Bill Wilson advocated drug use?
"One turned up the other day calling himself Boniface." ~ Bill Wilson

Why would you write such a post? You really think like this? Why does it matter how many years you have with AA? Who said AA cures depression, bi-polar disorder, manic depression or any other emotional or mental disorder the person had when they decided to stop drinking. How do you know they are not being treated by a doctor, trying new meds or in the case of some taking meds but this is the best its going to be. Jesus, PIE, you have to be a better person then this post.

All I am seeing is your ass....:)
marietta davis's picture

On Wikipedia: just expressing Ironic's viewpoint. I have been roundly chastised by her for using Wikipedia as a source of information. In my experience, once banned by the Church, always banned by the Church. They move backward, not forward. Who's Maria?
causeandeffect's picture

diablo.

===================================================
"I need a placebo like I need a hole in the head." Clark PA [J Law Med Ethics. 2002]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11905269

Please elaborate?
marietta davis's picture

Please point out within what pages or chapters of the Big Book we can find said "claim to cure" depression, bi-polar disorder, or other mental disorders. Very interested to know if I overlooked something.

I was perplexed. Who is Diablo?
causeandeffect's picture

Good point. I'm sure most steppers are unaware that he did, but attitudes are passed down from generation to generation, without them even knowing why.

===================================================
"I need a placebo like I need a hole in the head." Clark PA [J Law Med Ethics. 2002]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11905269

Pennywise's picture

Bill thought LSD was a great way to reduce ego so that people could augment their conscious contact with God. He even gave it to his wife. You have to know this by now.
"One turned up the other day calling himself Boniface." ~ Bill Wilson
Pennywise's picture

Thing is, if drug use breaks a sobriety streak, then the holy messiah of AA (Bill W.) was not sober for nearly as long as the legend says. Thus, AA Steppers have a vested interest in avoiding the topic of drugs. So it makes sense they would want to distance themselves from NA.
"One turned up the other day calling himself Boniface." ~ Bill Wilson
btnben's picture

The one with the tritone to start? was trying to find this by the Flying Burrito Bros, but YouTube gets sketchy at times if it's more than 10 years ago. Like this version though. Didn't know Steve Martin played. This should give Danny a wet dream...lol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrlqQ1_vZVE&feature=results_video&playnex...

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

causeandeffect's picture

There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest. BB p.58, How It Works

===================================================
"I need a placebo like I need a hole in the head." Clark PA [J Law Med Ethics. 2002]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11905269

Pennywise's picture

It's kind of like Jews and Christians. Just as Jews deny that Jesus was the Son of God, NA philosophy would deny that Bill Wilson was sober ever since the day he saw God in Towns Hospital.
"One turned up the other day calling himself Boniface." ~ Bill Wilson
causeandeffect's picture

Too true. And yet they still never know why they hold these attitudes.

===================================================
"I need a placebo like I need a hole in the head." Clark PA [J Law Med Ethics. 2002]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11905269

btnben's picture

Everyone knows you are Danny. Are you coming straight in here or are you using a proxy server Danny?

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

btnben's picture

"The whole subject is controversial, and AA doesn't engage in controversies" Usual brush-off line I remember when the subject of drugs came up.

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

causeandeffect's picture

Have you ever heard this song? I found it hard to believe this song never made it to the UK, but my ex said he'd never heard it. And he was a pure genius musician. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27IW08mC3zE

===================================================
"I need a placebo like I need a hole in the head." Clark PA [J Law Med Ethics. 2002]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11905269

I do know Lois tried LSD and did not like it. I also understand that LSD was being used by Bill Wilson, the CIA, the Military and our Govt. to treat for depression and other clandestine reasons. This was all going on throughout the 50's till the early 60's. It is well documented. I don't think you would be so cavalier with your statements if you had ever suffered from severe depression, IMHO.
causeandeffect's picture

You're diablo, diablo.

===================================================
"I need a placebo like I need a hole in the head." Clark PA [J Law Med Ethics. 2002]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11905269

You do know Bill used LSD to treat his depression during the 50's? This was the mid 50's not the mid to late 60's Haight-Ashbury San Fransico, Ca.

I bet you really believe that too....lol.
btnben's picture

Thanks for that C&E - it's been bookmarked for further investigation. Excellent production and one of those ladies has got a voice up there with the best. I love voices but find you have to go to musical theatre to find the really best women. The crap makes all of the money...lol This lady is one of my favorites of all time. This song just makes me melt...lol (big softy really...lol) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guMMieMwbXU

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Why would I answer you, Marietta? There's no point. You'll just twist whatever I say around, insult me and wish horrible fates for my children. This might come as a surprise, but that doesn't make pleasant conversation (or even debate) for normal people.
"Your pain is no credential here, it's just the shadow, shadow of my wound." --Leonard Cohen

Why would I answer you, Marietta? There's no point. You'll just twist whatever I say around, insult me and wish horrible fates for my children. This might come as a surprise, but that doesn't make pleasant conversation (or even debate) for normal people.
"Your pain is no credential here, it's just the shadow, shadow of my wound." --Leonard Cohen
btnben's picture

I agree. Much more eloquent than "Fuck off, troll" too...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

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