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Fri, 01/27/2012 - 11:07
I haven't been to a meeting since early December 2010 (Damn - missed my first cult free birthday - are there any Orange chips yet?...lol). Since leaving I have been contacted twice by people from the roomz - both times when they wanted something (typical?).
Last spring I got a call from someone I hadn't seen for at least 6 months, probably longer. He was about to be homeless and needed some help. I have been active with a local homeless charity over the last few years, so I've had a bit of experience in the field and was happy to help him all I could.
The first point of call was the local council's housing offices. In the UK (probably in the US too) you get nowhere until you are at least in the system. I left home immediately and met him at the relevant offices in town. The reason I went with him was that I had been through something similar in the 80s and I can remember how frustrating it can be. The guy in question has a bit of a short fuse and I went personally to act as a brake should he start losing it.
After the normal wait we went and spoke to the woman dealing with such problems. Within a minute the guy had launched into the "I'm in recovery", "I'm doing the steps", "I'm making amends", "I've got a higher power in my life" monologue - I couldn't stop him - I tried several times. The eyes of the woman he was speaking to just glazed over - she wasn't interested - it had nothing to do with her. I found it a bit embarrassing and, in the end, just left him to it.
This episode really brought home to me the different mentalities inside and outside of the rooms. I just thought what the poor woman would think if someone turned up and started talking about their athlete's foot?. After we left the council offices he asked me why he hadn't seen me at meetings, and when I told him he just walked off.
Needless to say, I haven't heard from or seen him since.
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
Fri, 01/27/2012 - 12:34
That's quite an effective payoff, msafrany. Good for you: you found a way to collectively dump every (former) friend who disagrees with you. Bottle it and sell it. There's nothing like spring cleaning.
Fri, 01/27/2012 - 19:15
I have been observing and participating for a little while and I have come to the conclusion that you are a mean spirited person Marietta!! Or would you like to be refered to as beautifily spirited person? Which one? Or neither? Come on take the bait! Ready? What msafrany is saying has nothing to do with you. None of this has anything to do with you. Don't you see this? I will respond with my story at a later time because it has merit. It has value, to me!!! It has value to Btnbn and has value to msnfrany. Therfore it has value!!! We have a commonality. One that you will never share. You cannot. You have demonstrated that you do nothing here but provoke and try to always diminish our experiences within AA. We are not alone!! Of this I am sure. Who you are or, what you are is not quite clear to me just yet, but when I do make a decision as to what 'I' decide you are I will never put a name to it leaving you to languish . . . . . forever!!! Because what I think of you is important!!! So now it is important to you!! Don't try to deny it!!You cannot hide now!! I have declared now that what I think about you is indeed important! . . . Maybe. LOL!! The rental space in my head is very pricey. Use caution.
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 03:58
You just made her, "marietta davis" day.
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 08:53
Well done steve cochrane you have successfully manipulated whatever brain cells you had left to make yourself believe in the anti-aa propaganda. Was this your first speech, I say bravo.
The ole` psychological "switch a roo". You declared that marietta was or is "mean spirited". What a character assassination if you ask me. One problem though Mr. cochrane, why do you berate marietta throughout your post while you are claiming the higher moral ground.
This behavior is so typical of anti-aa'ers. Steve clean up your own behavior before attacking others, OK.
Fri, 01/27/2012 - 20:10
Marietta, how do you come to the conclusion that msafrany dumped every former friend who disagrees with him ? I read his post pretty carefully and it sounds to me like he was dumped because he chose to walk away from AA. I don't see what's so hard to believe about that.
"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 02:05
Don't take too much notice of Marietta. She sees things other people don't. Look through her posts over time. Sometimes she's vicious and rude and sometimes she tries to be nice. She even comments on the fact that she is being nice at the end of her post. These are not the actions of a sane person. Smile, nod your head and quietly move away is the best remedy.
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 08:55
I have read your posts and they seem to reflect the same attitudes and behavior. What say you??
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 04:05
You just made her "Marietta " day.
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 04:11
You just made her " Marietta" day.
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 10:32
I want to read every dramatic tale of how msafrany tried to go back and talk with his foul-weather friends about his decision to leave AA after 20 years, about how he tried to explain his decision to any one of them, and how he has suffered in having lost these good friends. What efforts were made? He wants the reader to believe he was shunned. You, for some reason, want me to believe he was dumped. Look, we make decisions in life that have a ripple effect. When I didn't have a toddler running around my house anymore I lost interest in talking with mothers who had toddlers. When I quit the music business for ten years I lost interest in what gauge guitar strings I really should have on my guitar, or who the fresh new country music ingenue du jour was. What msafrany had in common with his pals was AA. When he yanked the commonality he yanked the foundation of the friendship. I don't see what's so hard to believe about that.
Fri, 01/27/2012 - 21:30
I have experienced similar stuff msfrany. Pure and simple .... it hurts. The very people that we had such great experiences with playing volleyball,cooking food together,whatever it may be, just good wholesome fun all of a sudden turn their backs on you. You say what? What THE HELL? You automaticaly go to what is taught in AA. And what is that? Taking yours and everybody elses inventory from here to Ohio. Its a stupid way to live. Just doesn't make sense..
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 10:02
"You automaticaly go to what is taught in AA. And what is that? Taking yours and everybody elses inventory from here to Ohio. Its a stupid way to live. Just doesn't make sense.."
This is incorrect. AA does not suggest that you take anyone else's inventory; in fact, the entire foundation of the program features personal accountability, not the accountability of others.
Weak. That may be mean-spirited, but it is the truth: this is a weak argument.
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 15:17
It’s a lot deeper than that Frany. We all have those stories and it does hurt to be isolated from a group where you thought that you had friends.
In my view, human beings are pack animals. Period.
As pack animals, it becomes all about status and exclusivity. This was the theory created by Maslow in the 1940's. He identified five needs that humans strive to satisfy (alcoholic or not). Those needs are, in order: Survival, Safety, Social, Esteem, and Fulfillment.
Your story sounds like it relates to levels 3 and 4 of Maslow. Status is an esteem need and regardless of where we fall on the economic ladder, we all strive to achieve status before we can move on to the highest need. Whether we admit it or not, we all want to feel as if we are a little bit better than the people around us. We begin to establish that - at least in our own minds in the real world- with the symbols of wealth such as jewelry, automobiles, or in the case of AA—CHIPS! (Even the poorest of people find symbols with which to establish their status) The visibility of these status symbols can create the powerfully motivating emotion of envy.
Does this sound familiar with regards to AA?
Remember, Step 1, Day 1, is the giving of the "Keep Coming Back" chip. You're now a part of the pack.
Did we all experience a loss of social status upon leaving AA? DId it affect our esteem in the short run? I don't know for sure, but I do know that long posts are boring and I have to go to work....NOT a "meeting."
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 10:08
I did not experience a loss of social status upon leaving AA. I gravitated away from it and did not feel a loss of any kind.
How do you think Maslow's theory holds up seventy years later? Are professionals still employing this paradigm when evaluating societies, patients, or employees?
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 11:08
Marietta, as the theory relates to "esteem," I believe that Maslow is still valid.
Let's face it, our alcoholic "bottoms" vary from high to low. The doctor's story in the 4th edition of the big book was a self-admitted high bottom. Whether high or low, the psychology of the cult and how to manipulate the mind is still valid (which is where Maslow is of importance in my opinion).
Did Bill and Bob think about this as a way to recruit individuals into a cult???
Anyone who believes that they did is giving those guys WAY too much credit.
That's my opinion anyway. Remember, I am not against AA...it was there for me. But I do take issue with what AA has become.
PS: Glad you weren't hurt when you left, but many do get hurt unless they have set up a parallel social structure. That's just being "human."
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 11:43
Many who leave AA for the final time are leaving in a healthy state. They did the work to better themselves. Does this mean that the people who found out they did not like AA but still suffer from addictions should be pointed out as not working the program, NOOOOOO!!!!
All it means is that many people left AA in a healthier state then when they got there and others leave still feeling unhealthy because they did not like AA methods so there for have not "yet" begun there healing/recovery process. Then again maybe they found out by looking at the AA recovery principles that they don't need anything they can do it by themselves.
Biodoc, know this though if people leave AA and fall apart do to lack of social structure, that is on the individual not the social structure. The social structure is always there (it is everywhere) it is our job as a addict/alcoholic to find the help we need (social structure) and let it work for us.
biodoc, you have no proof that AA is a cult, even Rick Ross doesn't believe that and Orange isn't pushing this nonsense either. What you might have that could resemble a cult is pockets of members who gather and practice a doctrine much different then AA and try to call it AA.
Oh and yes you are against AA if you consistently call it a cult that recruits people to manipulate their minds. I would be against AA if it was like this.
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 12:00
I guess I missed the part where I labeled AA as anything other than AA. I have made no such "cult" claim in any post.
Defining a true "cult" requires specific education and training far beyond my level.
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 12:19
Try this cult test for yourself. Score AA against Scientology or the Moonies or any cult of your choice. Look for the similarities...lol.
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 12:23
God, now you're doing it.
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 11:54
I am with you on what AA has become. Some of what I read here is practically unbelievable but still compelling enough to give serious thought to. I also agree that it would be giving too much credit to Bill and Dr. Bob to claim they cooked up some recruiting protocol to maintain a cult. I find that kind of thinking paranoid and silly. If the Orange Papers Forum could come down out of the clouds of exaggeration and self-righteousness then maybe intelligent discourse could take place. So far you seem rational and careful in choosing your words when you address these topics, some of which are just plain ridiculous. I appreciate that and I think you set a good tone for discussion here.
I'm not against AA, in fact, I drew a lot of strength and learned a lot of coping skills through my time in AA; but I am not an active member and have not been for many, many years. Yet because I have some positive things to say about it I am the house pariah. Better me than someone who would take these reckless comments seriously.
Let me ask you: how would you redesign AA to be more helpful to the non-criminal, non-murderous, non-scamming, garden variety alkie who's just looking for some structure and support? How would you go about divorcing AA from the courts? Would you separate minors from the general population? Would you assign security to the meetings? What kinds of ideas have crossed your mind as you have been reading the posts on this forum that might actually effect some change in the way things are currently done and take AA back to its essence? How would you disentangle AA from treatment centers, or try to assure that alternate options were made available to those seeking help with alcohol dependence?
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 12:06
I know your question was addressed to Biodoc, but as you know that does not stop me from sharing my thoughts. Anyway, one place to start would be creating some barriers that would prevent any 12 Step crazy like Darrin Z. (in the letter DS posted below) from becoming a mental health/substance abuse counselor.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 12:15
You said it all Pennywise. This guy couldn't be a real counselor at anything and hold a valid license.
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 12:17
I agree, even though I understand the absolutely staggering frustration he must have experienced in trying to communicate with Orange. The entire situation is naturally polarizing. So you think the training should be more stringent? What about istj04? He comes on this form and rages and raves and screams in all caps about how every AA meeting should be shut down and every AA should then immediately die. This is not a joke; I have over 80 posts of his making insane proclamations. And yet this man is a registered addiction specialist in El Monte, California. Here are his credentials:
Masters Level - Registered Addiction Specialist (M-RAS) Breining Institute; Clinical Supervisor Credential (CSC) Breining Institute; Master of Arts in Education Administration (1998) California State University, Los Angeles; Bachelor of Arts in Liberal Arts and Sciences - Social Science (1985) San Diego State University; Driving Under the Influence Program Counselor (2004) California Association of Drinking Driver Treatment Programs; NAADAC I Certification (2007).
His idea is that AA should die and every member of AA should then immediately die. I submit that his rantings are significantly more severe and dangerous to vulnerable newbies than anything Darrin Z. wrote. And istj04 is in practice every day. He didn't just write one letter. How would you corral him?
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 12:28
"even though I understand the absolutely staggering frustration he must have experienced in trying to communicate with Orange. "
Orange is probably one of the easiest people you could meet to communicate with. He answers question (you could learn from that). He replies to everyone without censorship. Where's the frustration coming from?
What was the point of listing istj's credentials?. Are you still trying to invoke fear with your laughable threats to out him?...lol.
Please provide a link to where he says all AA members must die - I think your talking your usual shit.
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 12:58
This is not a link, it is a screen shot taken last year. I have over 80 screen shots of his vile, hateful spewings:
"Where's MY preference, GOD-DAMMIT!?
That: "The 12 Steps are the most worthless words written into the English language and need to be eradicated out of it, that 12-Step groups are pathetic, anti-individual, cults, should be eradicated off the planet, and their true-believing followers, serial killed"! 10.18.11 10:05 a.m."
If you go back and track his posts to 10/18/11 you will find this there.
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 13:19
Did that comment come out of the blue or was it in response to something you wrote? Wouldn't want to paint a false picture now, would we? (Well, you might - you do it often enough...lol)
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 13:59
All you have to do, ben, is track his posts here on the OP Forum. And please don't play dumb: you and he were in complete cahoots when you infiltrated e-aa. You know damn well what I'm talking about.
No, I wouldn't want to paint a false picture. This is why I have recorded every vitriolic thing istj04 has written since I came on board. He also appears under that pseudonym in other online places as well. He cannot deny that he wrote the posts, and neither can you.
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 13:00
Oh, I'm not threatening to "out" him. I am promising to reveal him with his own words. I am hoping he suffers because of it; a job loss would be just the beginning.
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 13:21
Makes you think of all those slogans like "Live and Let Live" or "We will comprehend the word serenity". Nothing funnier than a stepper showing their true colours...lol
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 14:04
As someone who once attended AA I can tell you that no one ever told me that I must not think or feel or believe as I choose. I have the autonomy to develop opinions and decide what should and should not be addressed in my life. All of life is not serene. To be told that I should be murdered by a serial killer is not something that inspires serenity.
You want to see true colors? Track istj04's posts for the last six months and assign a color to them. You can't. His soul is black, and you risk the same by defending him.
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 14:30
Written by a friend.
"Sitting, Watching, Waiting,
biding my time.
I am a prisoner of my own self,
trapped in a false world of hope, dreams and love.
Just an outside shell,
shown to the harsh world of reality.
No one must break the shell.
For it is safe,
It is real.
Smile, fit in.
No worries of people's feelings,
for they mean nothing at all to me.
They just scratch the surface.
Never digging deep into my heart,
to find the love and joy that once existed.
A false man to the people who think they know him,
but don't care enough to really see him for who he is;
Someone who is not allowed to hurt,
to be in pain.
For he is the jolly one on the outside,
but no joy will be found in the dark shell.
Hiding, Burying, Building,
I will control his thoughts,
but not his actions.
For his actions are pre-planned,
so that they show no signs of the man,
just the figure that they know.
The written word and the silent thought,
are all the man has to express his crack in the shell,
that has layered like bricks of a wall,
to close out the outside world.
From the darkness within,
comes the light on the outside.
He shall leave the light on,
so that he may be safe in the dark"
Sun, 01/29/2012 - 04:40
So I see that you PM'd this guy to "gain information" to use against him. You are one sick puppy, now you know why I didn't respond to your PM to me! Get help!
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Sun, 01/29/2012 - 06:48
People need to realize these people are very unstable. This is no joke.
Why are we allowing trolls to cross the line and jeopardize other posters?
Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymouswww.nadaytona.org
Sun, 01/29/2012 - 07:28
There was a poll a while ago. Two thirds of the people who voted voted to get rid of them. Someone could try again.
Sun, 01/29/2012 - 07:44
The juxtaposition of your post's body and sig provokes wincing affront.
ps. The smug pose of the ugly woman in your pic compounds the wince.
Sun, 01/29/2012 - 08:18
What the heck does "PM" mean? Thanks
Sun, 01/29/2012 - 12:08
Means "Private Message". A way to contact just one person rather than everyone.
If you wish to contact someone, click on their name (blue) under the pic in any of their posts. Then select the "Contact" tab and type in your message as you would with any e-mail. The message will be sent to the e-mail address that they registered with on this forum. It will be "from" the e-mail address you used to register.
Sun, 01/29/2012 - 09:02
There are some pretty wild and intimately personal tête-à-têtes on this site. Best to not break anonymity.
Tue, 01/31/2012 - 21:25
I never PMd anyone. Man, this is very entertaining, watching you people spin out over shit that never happened. I don't want personal information from you if it's not voluntarily offered in a post here (particularly you, junior, now that I am aware there's nothing for you to offer), nor do I wish to disclose anything so revealing about myself.
Just like t.v. as a kid, when those stupid outlaws couldn't hit the side of a barn with their firearms and sent thousands of bullets into the rocks where The Lone Ranger and Tonto were hiding. Ping! Ping! PING!! Get a grip.
Please calm down and listen to yourself. You're losing it, junior.
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 12:31
Did istj04 out himself or did you out him using his screen name? I have to go do something quick right now, but I don't want to dodge your question. However, I don't feel comfortable using information identifying posters here if they have not first "outed" themselves.
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 12:53
istj04 is his screen name. He and I have had some back-and-forth about his attitude and his occupation; he has not denied anything, but he has staunchly defended his right to wish all AA members dead. I do have his personal identity but have not used it here. Don't ask me where I got it. It took quite a bit of research, none of which I wish to disclose.
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 14:17
It took me 2 seconds to do the research. I know who he is, too. I do find it very troubling that you are threatening to hurt him professionally (not saying you would succeed, but the thought is troubling to me).
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 15:15
You think it's troubling that I am threatening to hurt him professionally when he is threatening the lives of every AA within his range?
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 15:54
He's not doing that. It is very clear from the context of his post that he was kidding/exaggerating. The same is not clear from the context of your posts.
Sun, 01/29/2012 - 01:47
One post and it's "kidding/exaggerating". The better part of eighty posts in the same wild, frenzied vein and it's not "kidding/exaggerating", it's instability and it's dangerous to his clients. The man is a menace.
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 15:04
I do have his personal identity but have not used it here.
Yes, you have.
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 15:14
No, sir. You PM me and tell me where. He has not been identified by name.
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 17:13
Your PM function is disabled. Just google his name and the Orange Papers and one of the first search results leads to a post written by you.
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 15:47
If this man puts his business information on the internet he is interested in his own personal gain to be had through others' discovery of his qualifications there. His profile online is not a personal, intimate, "for your eyes only" piece of work - it is for business. He risks discovery when he discloses such information.